26th Nov 2007
Barack Obama on H1B and Immigration
Michael Arrington interviews democrat senator and presidential candidate Barack Obama.
MA: What is your position on H1B visas in general? Do you believe the number of H1B visas should be increased?
BO: Highly skilled immigrants have contributed significantly to our domestic technology industry. But we have a skills shortage, not a worker shortage. There are plenty of Americans who could be filling tech jobs given the proper training. I am committed to investing in communities and people who have not had an opportunity to work and participate in the Internet economy as anything other than consumers. Most H-1B new arrivals, for example, have earned a bachelor’s degree or its equivalent abroad (42.5%). They are not all PhDs. We can and should produce more Americans with bachelor’s degrees that lead to jobs in technology. A report of the National Science Foundation (NSF) reveals that blacks, Hispanics, and Native Americans as a whole comprise more that 25% of the population but earn, as a whole, 16% of the bachelor degrees, 11% of the master’s degrees, and 5% of the doctorate degrees in science and engineering. We can do better than that and go a long way toward meeting industry’s need for skilled workers with Americans. Until we have achieved that, I will support a temporary increase in the H-1B visa program as a stopgap measure until we can reform our immigration system comprehensively. I support comprehensive immigration reform that includes improvement in our visa programs, including our legal permanent resident visa programs and temporary programs including the H-1B program, to attract some of the world’s most talented people to America. We should allow immigrants who earn their degrees in the U.S. to stay, work, and become Americans over time. As part of our comprehensive reform, we should examine our ability to replace a stopgap increase in the number of H1B visas with an increase in the number of permanent visas we issue to foreign skilled workers. I will also work to ensure immigrant workers are less dependent on their employers for their right to stay in the country and would hold accountable employers who abuse the system and their workers.
Why don’t we have a count of American unemployed IT people that are trained and qualified (BSCS), but looking for work? Many studies have shown that we, in fact, do NOT have a shortage of skilled workers in the US.
Isn’t that something we should have?
There are still many, many professionals out there that were laid off due to the H-1B surges in 200, 2001, and 2003, as well as the cumulative effects of outsourcing. They are underemployed, or have had to change fields and work multiple jobs to make ends meet. Do not forget that this visa is called the “outsourcing visa” because it accommodates and streamlines the ability to MOVE WORK OUT of the US.
Do we expect Americans to study hard, pay big tuition fees, preparing for a career – and become qualified (by BSCS degree) – only to find out that they are not first in line for jobs in their own country? (Think – What is wrong with this picture? Is this a Set-Up?)
The skills for IT jobs that you see in internet job postings are presented in very narrow specific terms with numerous listed skills – including even version numbers of products used. The chances of an individual having the exact mix of skills listed is improbable. And, any smart IT person would not be able to work locked into a specific, stagnant skill set. The nature of this work is to problem solve, to constantly learn and incorporate new skills into your skill set. This use of very specific skill sets in job postings is a means to disqualify American citizens on paper, so that less expensive foreign labor can be used.
Obama talks about a “bachelor’s degree or its equivalent” – the “or its equivalent” means what? a big loophole to bring in cheaper foreign workers without any rights.
Do not be fooled. Any well trained BSCS (Bachelor of Science in Computer Science) professional can easily and quickly learn new skills, and needs to, to keep an interest in work and to do a good job.
It sounds like Obama is trying to play both sides to me. I am hesitant to believe anyone that doesn’t talk about cleaning up all the well documented abuse in the H-1B and L-1 visa programs before they even mention ANYTHING about increases.
Haven’t we all heard about Lawrence Leibowitz, the Director of Marketing for Cohen & Grigsby now best known for teaching companies how to NOT HIRE AMERICAN WORKERS?
There are NOT enough new jobs in this field being generated right now to employ all the new graduates we have, forget about all the people that have been displaced by the previous serges in H-1B and L-1 visa use and the ongoing increase in outsourcing.
Increasing H-1B will promote and streamline more, faster outsourcing – that is NOT what Americans need. Women and minorities, as usual, are the hardest hit.
So when evaluating presidential candidates, we must really think about, who do they REALLY work for?
You can investigate this issue at: http://www.numbersusa.com/hottopic/H1B.html
As A former tech worker who has seen many of his fellow Americans replaced by CHEAP H1B indentured servants this is my number one issue. I will not vote for any candidate who feels that the H1B program is nothing less that TREASON.
10063 – good site. PeterPan
you need to listen to the message again…you will learn if you pay attention…you are sounding like a cyclone hit you…go ask your parents who crossed the border when you were a baby. people like you are never going to float, whether there are immigrants or not
LOL. The IT recruiters have been annoying me with tons and tons of job E-mails since 2004. There aren’t jobs? Something must be wrong with those unemployed folks.
I’m a software engineer. After I graduated college, it was very, very challenging to find a job, because none of them were entry level. Of course, all of the entry level jobs have been outsourced to foreign countries. Still, I managed to get a job at a start-up, where I worked 12 – 15 hours a day for much less than the typical salary in my region. While I was there, almost HALF the software engineers were foreign, India and Mexico to be specific. They were HB1 contractors with roughly 7 years of experience each. My company would pay the contracting company and the contracting company would pay the hb1 worker roughly 30% of that, it was highway robbery!
A HB1 visa increase will just reward companies that outsource entry level work to foreign countries as well as contractors that hire hb1 workers and then take 60%. I’m sorry, but $15 an hour is NOT prevailing wage for a software engineer with 7 years experience, which is what some of these hb1 visa employees were getting paid. You know what though, they were happy with $15 a hour, because that is a lot of money compared to what they would earn in their native countries. So what happens? Wages are kept down while inflation increases and Americans are out of jobs.
Fix the HB1 visa program before you increase the cap. Start by auctioning off HB1 visas to the highest bidder instead of just giving them away first come first serve to contracting companies. Don’t allow HB1 visa workers rights like in-state tuition or tax breaks. Then, funnel money into creating entry level jobs in the U.S. Force companies to hire entry level citizens and train them, if we have to.
The company with the highest number of HB1 visas? Infosys, a contracting company with it’s headquarters located in Bangalore, India.
The Only way to fix the H1B and L1 abuse is by strict regulations. First of all, third party H1B consulting should be banned. Also a person on H1B should be paid 10-20% more than what is the prevailing wage. After that, there would be no need to do anything, Sit back and watch the fun.
neo – you took the words right out of my mouth! When there is a shortage, you pay more, not less. H1B is very simply a scam to bring wages of Americans down.
I’m an EMPLOYED IT manager. We can easily train high school people to do a lot of the IT jobs, they don’t need BS degrees, a microsoft cert is sufficient. Yet my own company drives down wages routinely by bringing in H1B people rather than trying to compete or train Americans. We routinely offshore development and then lay off our developers. H1B is a corporate scam and is directly responsible for some of the collapse of the middle class. Personally I will not vote for anyone that supports it as is. At the same time my job would be in jepordy for even mentioning this to managment.
Guys… bashing H-1B people won’t do any good. Wanna bash someone? Bash the big companies that are going offshore to hire cheap labor just to make more money. If H-1B jobs are still inside of the U.S., even if they get lower salaries than most of you, the jobs are still in the country. If the government shuts off H-1Bs, don’t think you will get these jobs. These greedy companies will just close their plants here and go offshore.
Before I go too far I must say I have been on a H1B visa for the last few years… not a very enjoyable experience either from my side either. I work for a very big fortune 50 in my field of specialization (unfortunately,I would not have found work in this area in back home). The jobs good the pay is decent..and life is fine. It is however depressing to see entire divisions at other places, almost sweatshops, on H1 and L1. Where I agree with most of you is that we have been cornered by this corporate strategy. . my manager and HR seem to think they have thrown me a lifeline… to be honest its irritating and insulting.
I feel that we live in a complex world.. and no one gets chinese/indian/mexican comodities and services at cheap rates without paying a price. Someone somewhere in someway has to pay for it. For me, unfortunately, the other option is to go back home and carry with me a truck load of work with me when i leave
Supply and demand, more supply and the price goes down.
H1B visa in a nutshell.
Go ahead tell me the law of supply and demand does not include local labor!
The “best and brightest” are replaced by the “cheap and desperate”
If your short of IT workers why do interviewers tell me I’m “Overqualified”
Why are there 25 different requirements including 3 years experience on an in-house system written in India?
Why have I trained H1B holders to take my job?
The abuse of our immigration laws to lower salaries of Americans goes back to before the Civil war when the SLAVES of the south were competing against the paid workers of the north.
The Irish were brought in to lower wages of the Germans, the Chinese were brought in to lower wages of the Irish and the H1B’s are being brought in to lower the wages of Americans.
This is nothing new it’s not race, gender etc it’s Price.
Its called competition mate, deal with it. America benefited greatly when production quality increased and it sold goods around the world.
If you’re gonna take the good, better be ready to take the bad too, son.
Competition is only fair in a level playing field. Just a race to the bottom.
Supply and demand.
Argue against it all you want but your not fooling anyone.
American students are fleeing STEM field. H1B are Indentured servants. Saying that is not “Bashing H1Bs”.
All I see here is just a Bunch desperate people from low wage countries trying to get out and being used by the H1B visa program to lower pay for local people. A blatant attempt at class warfare on the part of government and greedy CEO’s who have no loyalty or moral code of ethics.
If you are not an American, why do you feel you have a say in our laws? I hear a lot of people tell us to mind our own business.
Self serving arguments for cheap labor.
As a lifelong civil rights activist who has worked (trained) many visa holders and seen the damage to US workers first hand I must conclude that the H1B program is the worst piece of legislation since the Three Fifths compromise.
In high school I was badly beaten with a crowbar because of my race. I suffered permanent spinal injury and had to change schools. After seeing the abuses of H1B workers by US companies and Indian IT bodyshops I got upset and posted this “manual” on a blog site as a joke.
Oh just to make myself clear on this issue, I’m FOR legal immigration of educated people in an orderly manner taking into consideration both the rights of the Immigrant and the local population.
The H1B program is HATED by US workers for very obvious reasons.
H1B supporters have been posting deliberately Racist posts opposing the H1B program in order to paint the H1B opposition as Racist.
Oh and one more thing as far as the Male Female ratio goes why are so few Immigrants FEMALE? I really don’t like being in an All-male(mostly) profession. Bringing in hundreds of thousands of Men with very few women is a recipe for social unrest, and seems very discriminatory to me.
thats it, bro
The simplest fix to L1 and H1 could be this:
1. Remove the cap on H1
2. Get rid of L1 altogether
3. NO third party contracting on H1. So if XYZ needs workers, they can get their own instead of bringing in Tata or any other Indian sweatshop. This will close the biggest loophole in the program which has caused most of the hurt and pain.
4. Portability to H1B – no need to stick to a single employer. Let the employers decide who they want to hire instead of refusing them due to transfer hassles. This way the workers cannot be enslaved by their sponsors for 10 years or so.
5. Prevailing wages + 25% must be the salary requirement. If there is a “shortage” and they are “skilled”, pay ‘em more. If they’re not, do not hire them. Economics 101.
6. If H1 is out of job for more than n number of months, he could be disqualified for Permanent Residency, and could become out of valid, legal status.
you guys are fools, fighting for H1b , there are 10 times more L1 guys here , funny funny all spouses can work too on l2 , all these l1 and l2 guys take 10 times jobs away then h1 and they get paid indian salary ( Hahahahah)
I agree with you Mr. Obama. But to work in the IT industry you just cannot just train. You need to get a 4 years of Bachelor degree in Engineering or computer science or higher. It need hard work and at least 4-5 hours of study every day till 4-5 years of college.
Mr Obama I need you to look more into the effort and challenge that Engineers do rather than just seeing the statistics.
I am an international student who applied for an H1B this year. I studied in the US for four years and graduated in the top 7% of my class. I am Not in the technology field, but I am pursuing actuarial science.
Maybe its because of my field, or the other international students I know personally, but I dont understand where the idea that we are accepting under-average rates is coming from. After doing four years of college here, why would I accept anything less than my US peers? In fact, because of internships both here and abroad (giving me a broader perspective in today’s globalized economy) I actually got job offers with above-average salaries. Other international student whom I know in the tech industry and investment banking are making the industry average of $60,000.
In terms of the Male/Female, i dont understand your point. Statistically and historically it is mainly males that get into the STEM fields, so the H1B has nothing to do with the ratio. The fact that mostly males get into the science is even moreso prevalent in foreign countries (whose citizens apply for the H1B) than it is here.
I agree that there should be restrictions for the process. I am in no way backing illegal immigrants. At the same time, I do not beleive I am “stealing” an American’s job (besides, how many students You know are studying actuarial science lol). In this light the H1B is fine for cases and fields such as mine.
In fact, what should be also done is to tighten the restrictions for US workers working in foreign countries. If you don’t know it is a two-way street. US workers are working in numerous countries all over the world under much slacker programs. Why is there no fuss or knowledge about this? Do ppl even know the criteria to achieve a H1B? Most times no. Bermuda, England, Canada, Cayman Islands are just a few examples of places where US citizens are going to work. Write a blog about that and let’s call it even.
I don’t understand how most people who are against the H1b program think that by not having H1b you are going to keep the jobs in America. Think about this from the perspective of a manager (to be specific – an MBA guy) – ALL HE CARES ABOUT is driving cost down NOT helping you. These jobs will be immediately shipped out to other countries. By the way, if you check H1B and greencard sponsorship is hardly done for managerial positions.
Of-course, H1bs land up spending most of their money in US unlike L1 employees and land up buying houses and building their lives in US when allowed to get a greencard. Unfortunately all this is tied to the employer and Obama’s position seems to be the most sensible one.
All I am saying is that if you think about it calmly and carefully – if you believe in blocking immigrants – the only thing you are doing is increasing dependence on other countries and ultimately driving entire industries away.
Think manufacturing – everything i see around me is made in China. It is just not hard to ship off a lot more of the jobs – specially to US educated employees in other countries.
I think the only way everyone will be able to think about this topic clearly is when you set aside your personal pain with respect to this issue and think about it calmly.
I’m deeply concerned about my job prospects in a shrinking economy, but an equally important issue is in how these resources are abused. They’re here because no american would stand the work hours and abuse for 40K. One Indian colleague of mine told me once , ‘ we are nothing but your modern day slaves’…great work America. After all the progress our leader have proclaimed in that realm, we find yet another population to indenture to the corporate interests.
I don’t get how managers continue to sign up for it either. Check out the input from Indian resources that work for Infosys on the following site:
http://mycompanysux.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8
But someone at BCG or McKinsey says it should work….why doesn’t it work??
After working my ass off for 5 years to get an engineering degree, and another 5 years in the IT industry, I’m seriously thinking about changing careers before it’s too late – lawyer, finance, medicine. Of course, if we have such a ’shortage’ now for people like me, you can imagine how this shortgage won’t be getting better anytime soon….
bright people jumping into non-productive sectors (AKA ’service-economy) where wealth is just passed around instead of actually produced will continue at an even greater rate. Great job America – the sooner it all comes crashing down, the better I say.
On another note, if were gonna offshore half our good jobs, then import cheap workers due to ’skills shortages,’ let’s at least even the playing field for us tech guys getting the shaft.
That means I get to buy all my medicine from India (where it is vastly cheaper due to much less restrictive patent laws). I can freely import any copyrighted material at the same prices the third world (actually) pays.
I can get my teeth cleaned for $25 whether I have insurance or not. A doctor’s visit the same price due to hundreds of thousands of imported doctors and nurses that are allowed to write prescriptions.
When I get divorced or need to hire a lawyer for a small claims court against some company that screwed me over (but knows it is not worth the cost of paying for a lawyer), I will soon be paying $40/hour for decent legal representation instead of multiple huge fees like it is now – cause we imported 200,000 English speaking foreigners who could specify in standard legal procedures and lowered the wages for the legal field.
Next time I buy a house, I won’t be paying some huge commission to a ‘professional real estate broker’ simply because we’ll allow foreign companies from India/China along with their thousands of imported laborers access to the same records as the protected NRA/real estate scam.
And when it is time for my kid to go to school, lets’ let the overpaid teachers’ union get what they deserve – 100,000 imported teachers from India that can speak English and are far brighter than the average US teacher – we can pay them $40K a year and not bankrupt the government with impossible-to-pay pensions such as we promise to unionized teachers now a day.
I’m dreaming though…
There is a basic economic problem with H-1b visas. Immigration rights to the US are valuable. the US gets over 10 Million immigration applications each year-and takes about 1.2 million(many of whom are relatives of US citizens).
If visas were auctioned off the price would be considerable. Basically low cost H-1b visas let corporations pay workers in immigration rights that cost the company little instead of cash.
Any occupation that is managed this way will drive out US workers.
If companies want immigration rights, why shouldn’t they pay a fair price determined by an auction(with bonding requirements to assure the public doesn’t absorb things like health care costs)?
[...] Obama responds to an interview question from Michael Arrington Until we have achieved that, I will support a temporary increase in the H-1B [...]
I agree with point 3 by Marc. Disallowing third parties like TCS to apply for H1B will solve a lot of problems in the IT job market. These companies send employees to the developed countries as an incentive to keep them from changing to other companies.
tcs got total of 20000 people in last three years..
if that’s hurting US….
I am amused.
As one who was replaced by a low-paid Indian import….This is just so much political posturing on both Obama’s side and McCain’s…God alone knows what they’re actually going to Do once in…but to hear practically the same line come out of both candidate’s mouths (i.e. ‘let’s get rid of (McCain) or ‘establish higher limits’ (Obama) makes me wonder how detatched BOTH are from the average IT worker; both sound like they’re firmly in the pocket of Management.
Is EVERYTHING in America for sale these days?
Yes, this kind of rot is nothing short of economic treason; but I prefer to think McCain’s is just outright sellout to Management, whereas Obama’s is Ivy-League-Ivory-Tower detatchment. He grew up poor, but he’s just spent too many years at the top, and seems to have a short memory.
Sad. And here I thought we were going to have “change”.
It’s going to be more like “spare change, please,” when we’re out on our asses.
Oh, and “Psamty”…don’t you “mate” me with that attitude…your sort of 3rd-world Darwinism just doesn’t wash in civilized democratic societies that are supposed to care for their own citizens first; in Norway, for example, they have a 2% unemployment rate: reason? One simple rule: “No foreign workers”.
How about that, Mr. Social Darwinist, oh, I mean, “mate”?
.I’ll start a boycott of your country’s goods and services that’ll send you back to whatever
So a lot of you are concerned with H1B workers taking over American jobs (wheather over or underpaid) and think this should stop but none of you had actually thought of on the reasons behind this. You complain about mexicans or indians taking over your jobs but you say nothing abou the US putting sweatshop in foreign countries and making those cities some of the poorest cities in their countries (which starts migration to rich countries like the US)
Before you start criticizing H1B, you should start by criticizing the US foreign policies which is causing all this
Despite your concerns about candidate’s changing positions, Sen Obama has kept his policies consistent. He recently answered a detailed questionnaire about immigration issues for in immigration law site, and his replies can be found at http://www.cpvisa.com/OBAMA.QUESTIONNAIRE.pdf
I am a Barack Obama supporter, but I am highly discouraged by his stance on H1B which seems to totally conflict everything he says about rewarding the companies that grow jobs and train workers in the U.S.
Government needs to be smarter and discern the difference between meeting a crisis skills need (i.e Y2K) and supplying an infrastructure which blatantly lowers the wages of American workers.
Im sorry but the India economy needs no more help from US business just like Iraq now doesnt. Folks need to realize that specific IT skills are not scarce, in fact, they are protected in most cases. What will (and already has) happened, is that these immigrants train their own in these skills and build foreign owned companies that become more competitive than the ones that underpaid and undertrained Americans are able to build.
Im sure if anyone of us concerned would express this in sufficient detail to Obama’s staff, they would listen and adjust their policies accordingly…they just need to better understand the minutae here…this is an area that can clearly help him get elected.
All against H1B read the truth below!!
You want your international corporations to sell products in India and China but dont want to give them jobs. Stupid!! GM, GE, IBM, Microsoft, big/medium/small companies all would have been bankrupt if they wouldn’t have sold products in so called ‘emerging economies’.
I have seen presentations in my company which clearly says that they would go bankrupt if they dont push sales in ‘emerging economies’.
But you think that people are there just to buy your products. Excuse me!! they dont buy for free. You want to be the only ones to reap the fruit of globalization. Accept the truth…your big-big corporations on which the whole Capitalist economy of US is based are surviving on emerging economies. So dont whine about them. Without them these big corporations( in which you have your funds, stocks, 401k, etc, etc invested) whould have long died ending the easy going american life with all the capitalist freedoms you enjoy right from birth. So you are not the only ones to enjoy global fruits, let others also share some. You are whiners who just want to sit on lazy fat asses and see the world just buy/consume US products.
All above is truth but you wont see the other side of story….
Absolutely correct ! All you angry guys out there please make a note of what Mike said .
The whole economy of US , EU and Asia have become so much intertwined that you cannot look at any one separately . If you want to sell things to China/India you will also have to provide them the money for the same . The N-deal with India is one such glaring example through which money will be drained out of India and jobs will be created in the US . At the end of the day it Business and money has to flow from both sides so that both survive .
And one more thing ,
Someone talking about Supply and Demand… pls add my remarks to that :
There is term in economics called Marginal Benefit . Its simply the amount of benefit ( salary and everything else associated ) you obtain by bringing in a unit of service ( as a employee ) or hire and pay (as a company) an employee . If your marginal benefit does not match with the company’s you will not get or do the job.
We are already bankrupt look what is going on, are we going to think about a billion of Chinese or Indians we would never pay our mortgages the politicians do not understand this they are talking about global economy well then let global economy pay for my mortgage and I will collect unemployment and sit on welfare
I am a immigration paralegal that started working for a supposed startup company that is actually a “H1B bodyshop” with the HQ in India. Not only are the workers being taken advantage of with bogus contracts, but the immigration petitions being filed are based on fraud and are breaking the federal law. They bring people over on H1B visas saying that they work for my company, then we file the petitions with the USCIS, the worker takes the approved petitions to the US embassy in India for their “appointment” then the H1B hopeful lies to the embassy officer saying they already have a job(per the petition that was sent to the USCIS) in the US and they get their visa and come over, they come to the office in N.California, and sit and wait in a seperate office for the company to find them a job. They do not get paid, but a one time $500 allowance. The company contracts them out to IT companies all the while keeping the employee under their H1B visa sponsership.
This makes me ill, especially because it states that they are highly skilled workers that are needed by the company because they cannot find an American worker. These people are being exploited that come over….basically my company is the big “pimp” and the wokers are the “whores”. I can’t see how this is legal??? Needless to say, I am quitting.
Ok lets completely get rid of the H1B visa, who cares about BS, any skeptical american has a globalization view? foreigner taken all your jobs? think again.
THERE IS A SHORTAGE OF QUALIFIED AMERICAN IT WORKERS. These people who complain about not having jobs are either unqualified or inflexible. And yes, the H1b process is screwed up. These well-educated people are treated like dirt. So REFORM the process and let the best and brightest become part of America and drive it’s success.
-HR Manager
There is defintitely an overabundance of “HR managers” though and any “HR manager” who wants to hire foreigners over Americans should be deported.
Nice, keep being ignorant. Sergey Brin- Russian, Linus Torvalds- Finland, SAP- Germany, Michael Leonidas Dertouzos- Greece, Chris Date- England, Wim Ebbinkhuijsen- Netherlands, James Gosling- Canada, Kenneth Eugene Iverson- Canada, Srinidhi Varadarajan- India, and the list goes on. Wake up man.
I am not indian or chinese or even from asia but I am an H1b worker. Doesn’t a lot of americans realize H1b workers are people too? The majority are well educated people. You can’t say they are not “the best and brightest” but instead are cheap and desperate. Even though they may not get paid well its not accurate to say H1Bs drive down salaries. These fortune 500 and fortune 1000 companies pay top dollar to consulting firms for H1b workers and then the consulting firms turn around and pay 50 and 60 percent to the H1b worker. So the companies aren’t necessarily getting a financial break. I get many job offers and descriptions for IT jobs by email daily many of which ask for US citizens or permanent residents. So for the unemployed US IT workers I say get up off your ass and go do an interview for Pete’s sake and if you don’t get a job ask why and then go update your skills. And on the offshore issue, H1b program and offshore or outsourcing are two separate issues. Please buy a dictionary soon and look up the word “offshoring”. Its completely different from the H1b program. H1bs only exist “within” the US while “Offshoring” moves businesses and services to other countries. Please read what you write before you post it. The first comment that mentioned specific skills “presented in very narrow specific terms with numerous listed skills – including even version numbers of products used”, it is called specialization. Its been around for a long time. You don’t want your pilot to be doing mechanic work on the weekends and doing dentist work after hours right!!! Get with the program man. Read a book.
I am on H1 and the only international person in my company. My company is in the simple business of Network Management.
To get the right candidate in New York City, we interview 40 people [Freshers or with 2-3yrs experience]. The salaries they ask are huge in comparison to there experience.
Ask my boss if he is against the H1B? He is but also considers me a good employee. I was hired on this job for a 3 months probation with no experience at all. Worked myself way up in the chain by gradually learning and upgrading skillset.
Don’t abuse the H1 B visa holders and present a false alibi. If you can’t find a job, then either there is nothing out there or you can’t seem to accept a little less salary.
World is changing and globalization is the key word. If companies or economies won’t change, they risk dieing.
I am on H1 and the only international person in my company. My company is in the simple business of Network Management.
To get the right candidate in New York City, we interview 40 people [Freshers or with 2-3yrs experience]. The salaries they ask are huge in comparison to there experience. Some of the experienced people cannot even answer a simple question on TCP/IP and there expected salary is 85k per annum. They are varied but sorry to say that most are American Citizens. I am sorry if i hurt someone’s feelings. Not being racist but saying the truth.
My company won’t have hired me if they would have found worthy candidates.
Ask my boss if he is against the H1B? He is against it but also considers me a good employee. I was hired on this job for a 3 months probation with no experience at all. Worked myself way up in the chain by gradually learning and upgrading skillset. I was hired not because of what i know but my willingness to learn and pay a price which was to work at a lower salary in the beginning. I don’t see any harm in that, as i believe that once your prove your worth, only then you are able to ask the $ you want.
Don’t abuse the H1 B visa holders and present a false alibi that you can’t find a job. If you can’t find a job, then either there is nothing out there or you can’t seem to accept a little less salary or you don’t have the skillset or what it takes to get that job.
World is changing and globalization is the key word. If companies or economies won’t change, they risk dieing.
I am an H1b holder from India in IT sector and plans to be in US by end of this December. Here the question is why people like me are interested in a Job in US is purly economical reasons and the demand available in US.
The factor behind the “cheap labour” is the value of US$ to a foriegn currency. Some few months ago many of my collegues including me was not at all interested to take up a job in US as the $ to Rupee(Currency of India) was too less.
All sectors including IT, offshoring , exports is based on this value . The demand and supply just controls all these. In the early 1980’s the Indian Economy was just begining to catch up and all the goods and services including labour was so cheap due to the Dollar – Rupee inbalances . Companies in US was interested to buy goods and services from Indian companies and they too interested to export this goods and services(jobs ), which are very attractive economically. Now the break-even and maturity levels reached. The signs of a decline of the economy on the way. This H1b controversy is a bye-product of this decline. But I feel this is short lived as the US economy will again boost in the future which again puts things in order.
I feel this is how the influx of people from other countries to US happened . In the eyes of an average Indian, America is a wealthy country and a land of opportunites . But currently after slowdown we see the job losses in US and a weak Dollar and a more stronger local currency. This again reduces attractiveness of Goods and services from India.
I belive in the econonic principle of Demand and supply which drives everything. The current problem is too much of H1 supply along with current economy situation in US sparks this controversy. A control as suggested by Obama in a phased manner may work and it takes some time . By the time Amerians get trained and gets more IT and medical and paramedial jobs the economy goes up. The richness and the greed for more money also goes up. This puts Dollar value again at high levels and other currencies low. When supply is controlled again demands goes up and the cycle continues.
On offshoring :- No Americans will be worried about jobs when thier economy is doing well and when there is luxury . There are many companies in India which just answer the phone calls to support a product or give product information. Considering the Dollar -Rupee conversion , these services are done at offshore location for pea-nuts. Can Obama stop this shipping of jobs to India? It is more than the tax breaks that is offered by Obama. How can a Govt stop a business unit function less ecnomonical in a Capitalist Economy like USA ?
The socialist reforms as suggested by Obama may work for sometime, but again it will be driven by Demand due to supply issues .
I feel stopping offshoring is not practical and short- lived.
If the principles of ecnomics are right then we all will have a win-win situation. That’s what the world hopes.
[...] Obama wants to expand the H1-B visa program. No surprise. Democrats love profit too. Ralph Nader wants to stop the H1-B “brain [...]
It’s interesting to see the comments on both sides because I’m actually on both sides. I have been a US citizen since 7 and I’m Indian.
In 200o when I was just out of school I couldn’t get a job because of no experience and the market was bad. So I worked Retail and some Government Contracting till 2004. Then I got with a fly-by-night company run by Indians that I meet through a mutual friend. I got trained in a very specific skill set and have been very well employed for the past 4 years. I don’t have visa but most people assume I do till they talk to me (no accent).
I have seen both the exploitation and the excess of H1-B visa’s. I know people who make 85-100 dollars an hour to people who make 38k per year doing the EXACT same job. To really fix this system make a minimum wage on H1-B visa’s 75k. After all H1-B visa was intended for scientist and researchers as President-Elect Obama has indicated. Companies like TCS, Infosys, Kanbay will balk at paying such a high rate for their employees as they wouldn’t be able to offer cutthroat labor rates for their clients.
Companies like Microsoft(Friend works here), Google, EBay(Friend works here), IBM(Lot of friends work here) which really do benefit from
increasing their resources for truly innovative stuff and also treat their employees would have no problem paying 75K and would probably pay even more.
Sorry to make this such a long post but one final point. H1-B visa are neither the problem nor the cure. America has been consistently moving away from R&D to providing services. Most jobs that are performed by H1-B are not product/research development but customization for specific clients. I think that America will always draw the best and brightest from across the world but if we stigmatize them because of the practices of some companies padding their bottom line we cheapen the American Dream.
Simple solution if it is a High Tech Workers Visa then pay them a HIGH TECH WORKERS WAGE 75K minimum for all H1-B.
Yes We Can-08
I agree with some of the people above. We should make sure all H1Bs get paid an average of 20% more than Americans. If companies still continue to employ H1Bs, then we should further increase their pay. Probably, also throw in free massages and other perks. Seriously.
You guys need to understand about globalization – the sale of American products abroad also hampers indigenous products in other countries causing layoffs – causing people to leave their countries to work for the firms here, and thus stealing American jobs. Let’s stop exporting anything outside the United States.
I am a CEO of a large company and we are using H1 and L1 to supplement our workforce. It provides us with skilled workers at a good rate. We can get 2 Indian tech workers for the price we pay 1 American. I don’t see any problem with this at all. If we want to get rid of them, no problem, we just let them go, but recently we have been letting go the American workers and bringing in more L1 people through Tata and Infosys. These guys are great, they will work the crap out of these boys late into the night, send work back to India and have them work on it while we are sleeping. I have heard the quality isn’t quite as good, but it is about 95% good and we can deal with the 5% of errors and fix those with the few people we still have employeed in our IT dept. We find that keeping the sub par American worker is best, they tend to not complain so much and aren’t as fast to try and find another job. We reward them by giving them the standard 2% raise every year, but raise their portion of the healthcare insurance to offset that raise. Meanwhile, us execs are taking some nice bonuses this year, most of us are getting bonus equal to our annual salaries and I see nothing wrong with that.
Thanks,
John the CEO
It is very informative and interesting reading both side. I myself being H1B resource working for fortune fifty clients from last 5 years.
Imagine the scenarios:
1. Companies like microsoft, pepsi, coke, ibm are not allowed to sell their products in emerging countries (NO EXPORT)
2. Us has to leave with whatever inbuild talent they have and dont import any talent, knolwedge, labour (NO IMPORT)
Imagine what will happen to everyday life of common man in USA. Walmart will get closed down, everything will go hay-wire..
We need to understand the global effects, understand the complexities of global economy.. you just cant say I am loosing my job so H1B should be banned.. need to find out why american is not as competent as indian, why company and many managers mentioned above like indian or chineese worker better than american.. introspection is important!
As far as H1B system is concerned that lottery is joke.. you study here for years and your career, dreams are resulted by lotter system..
Still I find H1B workers are better than L1, as there are higher chances of H1B filing GC and purchasing houses, cars right here in USA rather than sending money offshore, which will help US economy keep rolling.
From H1B employee perspective, getting into lotteries is first hassle and once we cross that maintaining the status is the next one. Thats the beauty if you want to be in status, u need to be in demand and u have to work at your best to else there is no survival.. once american workers learn into this there are no H1B needed then and management gurus can stress on near shoring than offshoring !!
I’m an Indian but I have been in the US since the 4th grade. For all practical purposes, I’m quite different because I was educate here. I just graduated with a BS in Electrical Engineering and I have applied for 200 jobs with very few interviews. I worked so hard and studied so hard and now I can’t find a job. My friend told me, why don’t you act as if you are H1B or something or like a FOB then you’ll land a job. So, me a US citizen, must act like a H1b or FOB Master’s student on a student visa and fake an Indian accent to land a job?? What’s wrong with this picture. Moreover, my fellow indians bloat their resume with lies. Bottom line is, when the competition gets stiff and everyone is lying.. Man, I hate to say this.. I’m thinking about putting fake experience on my resume because right now I have zero experience in the industry. I am not getting noticed. If this is what I have to do get a job then so be it. Looked at the fakeresume site.. great help!!
Working in the tech industry, i can realize that H1 is the biggest cost cutting incentive a company has. In the long run a company sacrifices the quality of a product.
I am quite disappointed to see that president elect will not be doing anything about restricting the number of foreign students allowed to study in the US. Due to the loop holes every so called student converts his education visa to a working visa.
I would like to dispel some misconceptions with the H1-B program. Firstly, companies hiring H1-b workers are by NO means paying them less. The process costs them at least $3000, not to mention the time and effort put into it. This is the same reason why some companies are only looking for US citizens or PR’s.
I am paid $50,000 as an entry level, with no experience whatsoever. This is on par with my fellow american graduates….so to say that companies hire H1-b for lower pay is complete ludacris. The obvious reason for this move is that there is a HUGE LACK of IT skills in the country, which explains why IT salaries have been skyrocketing.
Lastly, banning H1-B workers into the country would worsen the situation. Companies will start a base elsewhere. Just ask Bill Gates who opened up a base across the border in Canada, when he was not able to obtain more H1-B workers.
Hello Student,
I can understand your situation.. but the problem I can see is you are blaming the H1-B holders rather than regulations. If somebody is faking their resume or cheating with system.. system should be smart, strong and flexible enough to punish the people who are doing wrong things. As many people has said above rulling H1B out is going to be disasterous. In India when economy was opened every small business was kept to compete with global american giants. Obviously many of them got trahsed and lost their presence. In USA on the simliar notes IT employees are loosing jobs as they are not able to compete or give out the required acceptable results at reasonable rates. As a while global economics will find its equillibrium, one has to understand where he should stand!!
Good luck!
US is a country of immigrants
If today;s US citizens say that they oppose H1B’s and foreign workers, they must recall that their forefather’s were also arrived on H1B’s, just that a visa system did not exist that time!
Hi,
85% of US companies do not hire International students graduating from US universities although they might have better grades than fellow Americans. We have to search for only those jobs where we have the possibility of getting H1B. In my University if 100 companies visit for recruiting there are hardly 5 companies that take international students. Don’t you think American citizens have added advantage because of the only fact that you are American. Even if you people cannot get job after graduating you should seriously think about your capabilities. I had seen people getting 3-4 job offers while we struggle multiple times than you people only to get one interview call, that too for jobs that you people do not want to do. How many Americans are ready to sit in front of computer for 8 hours a day programming. I doubt it will be hardly 2%. You people harp so much about outsourcing, consider this point. One wireless router is sold for 30$ in USA, suppose some problem occurs and you need to call tech support and end up spending 1 hour solving the problem what is the cost of that in America. At the least 12$. In India it costs may be 3-4$. Can any one tell how will American company compete if some chinese company sells wireless router for 20$ and also has tech support in china. You won’t doubt that they can sell it for 20$ and you people will buy and i am very much sure about that. We are helping you people to compete. You people cannot even dare to bring back those jobs that’s why companies are outsourcing. Even if Obama takes away the tax break they wont create job over here. Simple economics, still they have more return in outsourcing than in tax break
You want to know about how much America Profits because of us. There are 800000 students studying every year in USA. They spend on average 10000$ on their tuition and around 500$ per month on living that combines to around 1.5 billion US$. We have to pay for GRE, TOEFL, Applying to Universities, Visa fees, Air Travel and so many other stuff that comes out to be around 3000$ per student. Overall we spend 3-4 billion $ in USA per year. I am not counting 340$ OPT fees and 3500 H1b Fees and so many other stuff. Even if you count the money we bring to your universities it may be around 5-15 million dollars a year depending on enrollment. Don’t you think your universities need this money.
Don’t just look into one side of coin, try to look at both sides
I am not even talking about health care.Hiring American employee needs employer to spend on health care. If you ship those jobs your employer don’t need to pay anything. There are many such things that American government needs to look into. Why don’t hey try to reduce medicare costs. This will help companies. Why cant you reduce the cost, the same medicare that costs 100$ over here is costing 5$ over at other places. You don’t have public transport. Everyone travels singly in such a big car, do you people think that’s efficient. There are so many fundamental problems in America because of which you people need more money to live. Why don’t you change your habits. Mr. Obama is at least write on this when he says we should not consume 50% of oil when we have only 2%. You people should learn to live with what you have.
What a mess. I actually admire the Indian workers leaving home and trying to get ahead. But, there is not skill shortage. It was a mith. If the government of India, Indian industry, the government of the US, and American industry all want our IT world to be dominated by Indian labor on H1 and L1 visas then that will hapen. It is for cost though, not skill shortage. Americans stopped studing IT in large part because they knew what was up. I think that was right about the time Microsoft started work on Vista. (not pointing fingers) but how was the quality?
Outsourcing/ offshoring & H1B are totally different issues. People are trying to mix up things here!
Again, Outsourcing/ offshoring is more cost benefitial to US employer. H1 is definitely for skill shortage plus the contracting model help employer to have less liabilities & more flexibility which is byproduct of H1B & L1 visas.
Qucik Note- In the westeren part of India, thousands of farmers have committed sucide in last 5 years. The main reason is they are not in position to compelte with gloabal giants plus they have lost their lands in SEZ(Special economic zones) about to be occupied by global giants or their partners. The point is we need to understand the impact of globalization on our life and change ourselve accordingly. It’s kind of storm, f you are with it its good else it will blow you one day! Again, H1-B is far better than offshorization.Through H1-B jobs are still in USA, else they will be in Canada or Mexico or India or Chiana. US top companies will earn through it but overall it will be huge huge job losses. If H1Bs are increased it will in turn create more job in this country (one job creates 3 more appx,) e.g. H1B person will live here for 6 years, chances that he will go for GC and then purchase car(s), invest here in shares, purchase house are much much higher than sending those jobs to offshore and only few in the industry are at benefit.
Needless to say H1B reform is much require now, making system very strict and punsih those who have been playing with it, whether its Indian or US consulting company. Thats where political desire will come into picture, very similar to the Wall street reform this system must be revisited, rethought.
Steve, you seem to be the epitome of ignorance. If you represent the average American man, then you asked for this.
you know windows vista has so many problems because Microsoft tried to hurry up its launch. Do you know most part of Windows 7 is still developed in India. If it was for quality or any such issues Windows 7 would have been developed in USA.
Could you please care to tell us what problems does Vista have? Or are you one of those Apple lemmings that drool all over the carpet every time a PC Vs Mac ad is on? Vista just got a really bad rep that’s about it. Also, it was more of a business issue than a product one. Nobody wanted a new OS when XP was such a hit and Vista did not do anything spectacularly better than XP, feature-wise.
You have absolutely no idea about the way Microsoft in India works From my personal experience, I can say that getting into MS Seattle is way easier than getting into MS Hyderabad, thanks to the billion people competing. Bottomline is, American companies will business where they can be most cost-effective, be it India, be it China. Microsoft is not an exception. And you know how much money Microsoft spends in India on lobbying for government projects every year? Microsoft is making billions in the Indian govt’s egovernance project.
If Americans stopped studying IT (for whatever reason), how is there not a skilled shortage? Where are the American IT workers gonna come from?
Good day guys! Lots of comments about H1Bs. People say americans can fill the shoes if H1Bs are kicked out, How is that possible? The company I work for is a small co and they have 30 people working offshore to keep this business up and running. All because they cannot find and retain people with those skills. Imagine how many people a big size company needs and how many companies there are. They have no option, if they want to keep the rest of the jobs they have to outsource.
And someone says H1bs should not be given tax breaks and all that… guys H1Bs are not citizens so they dont get the insane tax breaks that citizens get and I am with you they should not be given tax breaks and also they should not be made to pay Social security and medicare taxes to help some useless homeless individual, now dont argue that the person is homeless because of the H1B program. H1Bs help create jobs, they pay taxes as much as any citizen does or may be even more. They help keep many jobs in the US. So stop cribbing and get back to work.
Well said SS!
1. Obama is always saying in his campaign, he will save every job to stay in USA and fight for sending it to offshore.
2. USA do need technical experities (deifnitely specially skilled and not just graduates resources) and H1B is the program to fill up those shortages as well as agressively encouraging education systems to create more and more resources in USA itself.
To make both 1 & 2 possible, they have to increase H1B limit. In 2001, 2002 & 2003 that limit was 1,95,000 which is then reduced to 65000 + 20000 (f0r US graduates). You can surely see how many jobs are actually lost in 2004,2005,2006 & 2007 as it has encoruaged as well as comeplled comanies to send job to offshore. I am not even considering the jobs which would have been created if H1B limit not decreased. They have to increase this limit to 195000 or some sizable amount. They have to measure every job going to offshore, every new job getting created and what it needs actually. You can not Manage which you can not measure. To support US economy H1B increase is must which will aid to technical innovations at the same time american task force must be heavily prepared to take challanges urging them to go to IT fields not away from it. If they do not come into global competition, H1B will can not go away in future!!
I hear some H1-B proponets say “at least the jobs (filled by non-Americans)” stay here. If Americans aren’t filling them, why is that such a great result? Where will the “4 jobs for every immigrant” be created? At the Motel 6 or Taco Bell? Worst case scenario I’d rather these stinking companies move their operations overseas if they’re not going to hire Americans. We already have enough overpopulation and all the problems that come with it.
Dude BK. Do we conclude that you have no idea whatsoever as to how the American economy runs? What cave do you live in? Open your eyes, every 2nd person in this country is a goddamn immigrant. If you’re a white dude (most likely), your forefathers were immigrants too. Immigrants pay upto $140 billion in taxes every year. If it wasn’t for them you would have a ‘Foreclosure’ sign hanging in your porch today for the lack of a bailout. Go visit Redmond sometime and check out Microsoft campus. You will see more brown people than anybody else out there.
A few eye-openers.
1. You got your stimulus check right? H1Bs didn’t. Even though they pay the same in taxes. Why? No votes so no stimulus. How would you like that?
2. H1Bs are paying for all the baby-boomers’ medicare and social security expenses right now even though they will never get to use them. We all know where those two are going in a few years. Social security is already gone belly up.
3. The money that H1Bs send home comes back into the economy, thanks to the knee deep deficit that President Bush has managed to push us into. Hope you do know that China and most other emerging economies pump money into the US financial system just to keep things running? The day China stops handing out free checks to us, the dollar will be worth a piece of toilet paper.
So stop this prejudice and use your time to read up on how the global economy works. I’d recommend Thomas Friedman’s ‘The World is Flat’ (very old book now) as a great primer. Just coz some immigrant stole your job at Taco Bell does not mean that you hate all immigrants.
Where to start…as long as we’re making assumptions, I’ll assume by your tone that you’re a self-congratulatory champion of globalization. First I’d like to say thank you oh thank you for saving us all. Now that I’ve gotten that out of the way…
-Yes, my great, great grandparents were immigrants. Yet there’s been periods, from the 1920s to the 1960s for instance, where the country has had virtually no immigration in order to assimilate the new immigrants and stabilize the country. Moreover, the focus of this discussion is on h1-b visa holders, not immigrants. By definition these are not intended to be permanent residents so your comparisons to my ancestors are nonsense.
-Moreover, it seems that YOU are the one lacking knowledge of basic economics. Yes, h1-b visa holders do pay into the tax system. But your logic assumes this is all a net gain for the US economy. Do you think if an American worker held these jobs they would not be paying taxes or stimulating the economy through spending? In addition, tax revenues are reduced given that taxes are being taken on h1-b salaries that are 12,000 less than the prevailing wage. Furthermore, there are enormous economic and social costs that are realized when an h1-b visa worker displaces an American worker. Unemployment insurance, welfare, divorces, crime, etc. As a society we pick up the tab for corporate America’s addiction to cheap labor. So stop giving yourself high-fives.
You and your pro-globalization buddies may argue that some of these jobs would be shipped overseas if the h1-b visa program did not exist. I’ll even entertain that possibility. However, what are the environmental and infrastructural costs associated with absorbing millions of new residents? What about the diminished quality of life due to overpopulation? Why should US citizens be subsidizing cheap labor for greedy corporations? And if a US company decided to move nearly its entire workforce offshore do you think there would not be a backlash? Do you think they would still get tax breaks, do you think they’d still be given the same access to our market? Chances are these companies might actually have to play the supply-demand game in the US, and pay a decent wage. No kidding.
I don’t take it personally that you call me “prejudiced” for having the nerve to show concern for the plight of fellow citizens of all races (imagine that?). This type of name calling is the option of last resort for someone who doesn’t have the facts on their side. I would expect nothing less from someone who kneels at the altar of Thom Friedman. Thom Friedman? Gimmie a break.
People on H1Bs come here, because their countries won’t pay as much as we do in America.
If America is in need of skilled workers just hire them temporarily instead of giving them GreenCards and citizenships. They can go back to their countries after a period of time, instead of staying here forever and taking away other people’s job.
Well I do not think h1b workers should be blamed because of a firm’s decision to hire h1b employees.
We are a web hosting company and are now looking forward to outsource some of our operations to cut the operational cost so who should we blame now?
h1b employees for taking our jobs or should we thank them so low cost labour.
will you support our company if we say that buy our products to keep 1000 american workers hired?
At that point you will think about your moeny and not those 1000 workers but if you are one of those 1000 workers you will end up blaming h1b employees and not fellow americans ..
Mature people will understand what i am trying to say .
I wouldn’t vilify the h1-b visa holder. I am only irked by them when they act as if they’re somehow saving “ungrateful”(and unemployed) American citizens by virtue of holding a job here. It’s primarily the responsibility of government to stand up for the rights of its citizens, and here the government has let the people down. The ship has long since sailed in terms of companies having any loyalty to citizens of the communities they operate in. Though they’re more than happy to sell their products to them.
The problem with us Americans has always been that we have considered ourselves way above the rest. It starts right from our foreign policies down to the common citizen. We just have way too much superiority complex. What exactly is globalization? Is globalization just shipping jobs away to a 3rd world country? Is globalization limited to H1bs coming into our country and ’stealing’ our jobs away? I don’t think so. And what we’re seeing today is not a result of something as new as the H1B phenomenon. Let’s take a broader look at what has been happening over the past 50 years or so.
From almost 30+ years, we have been importing goods from China and many other 3rd world nations at an alarmingly rising rate. The reason? We simply cannot make them here at a cheaper price. Why? Our ridiculously high labor costs. In the quest to provide a better lifestyle to all our citizens, we have forgotten the basic principle of supply and demand. For any economy to keep running, there has to be both demand as well as the right supply to meet this demand. However, our demands have outgrown our needs. And today, all we are is a 100% consumption-only nation. You know Joe’s savings rate? <0.5 percent. The average Chinese Joe saves 30-50 percent of his income.
We have had a trade deficit for the past 30 years which means we have imported more stuff than we’ve exported. How many years do you think this model would work? Some genius in the Federal Reserve thought that we can get a continous stream of money from other countries by exchanging T-bills. A T-bill is worth what? Nobody knows! Or maybe nobody wants to tell. But the people who have been giving us money would want to know, coz it’s their money! A T-bill is nothing but a piece of paper if you don’t have anything to back it up with. It’s like you have a title for a Mercedes and say your car is worth 50gs when nobody has seen your car. It might be a 1975 Mercedes sitting in some garage somewhere. Who knows!
The mess we are in today hasn’t been created by a bunch of H1bs coming here to make a living. And we talk about quality of life deteriorating because of these guys. Believe me, I have a lot of people at work who are H1Bs and I’m not making this up, but they have a much better lifestyle than the average Joe. These are skilled professionals we’re talking about here not Detroit workers. In fact, the company I work for was founded by a person who came to this country on an H1B. The company has 3000+ people on their payrolls today, almost 2500 of them Americans.
If we really are concerned about immigrants, then we need to secure our borders first. 12 million illegal immigrants and rising and our beloved politicians would want to legalize them. What would happen to our standard of living then? We are cool with that though! Or else where would we get $5 an hour mexican labor to do our lawns right? There are inherent problems with our system (Medicare, Social Security, you name it) that are way bigger than 65000 skilled workers coming in every year legally. They pose the least amount of threat to our society if not uplift it in some way.
The biggest crisis that America is facing today is the ‘I want it all’ attitude. We want to have the best of both worlds. We would want that cheap T-shirt at Target for no more than $10 but we want a 100g job too. We dont want to make those shirts though coz that would make it a $100 shirt then. We want to flaunt our Hummers and dont want to pay more than $2 for the gas, even if it means bombing countries and killing thousands of innocent people. I want to sell Coca-Cola laced with pesticides in the remotest village of India and make a killing off of my KO but I dont want any of those guys competing with me here. We all need a reality check here. What we are seeing today is the result of this gigantic arrogance we have been carrying ourselves with for the past 70 years or so. Guess what, our time is almost up. If we don’t mend our ways and keep living beyond our means, we might not be too far from becoming another Zimbabwe.
America is not the best country in the world.
Nowhere close.
I am a fourth generation American seeking to have citizenship in ANOTHER country.
Why? Because there are no opportunities for me here. Probably the same reason why my great-grandfather set sail from Europe to live in the U.S.A..
I am glad he came from a country which gives its citizenship to the descendants of people who leave, even after a hundred years.
I am university trained in the U.S.A. to be an electrical engineer. No jobs though.
Not even after seven years since graduating. I wouldn’t recommend it to anybody else.
Shane, there is a reason why Americans don’t save money, but spend it all instead.
The big government here knows about every penny that people have in savings and investments.
And it eventually grabs everything that people save through corporate and individual taxes.
Since you can’t save it in this country, you might as well spend it.
I am Indian …. Working in American MNC. planning to move into Indian MNC ….
Now Obama is on Ati -Outsourcing and planing to increase H 1B and L1 B immgrants ..
Means he is directly accepting that foreiners (Indians , chinese , canada people, mexicans and japanese)
are more talented and techically stuff guys than Us guys..
Moreover he is saying they will train US people upto our worth enough to support for
level 3 and level 4 work and till that time US emabassy will encourage H1B vissas temporarly,
To make all these things to be done it will take lot of time ,
so during this time why can not we develop ourselves ,
why can not we work on our own projects and
why can not we prove ourselves.
we indians are not the “chep labour” to work for them for 24*7 support and given with less pay( half pay of an american pay).
US emabassy is encoourasing to increase H1B vissas temporarly,
Means directly they are planning to make use of our techinical worth completly.
My dear friends US is planning to increase their economy by decreasing our economy..
Please wake up frendz why can not we make rupee as double dollar…
stupid
Kamala,
What is wrong if Obama decides to take care of his own people? Just like we would want Dr. Manmohan Singh to take care of us. And he is not accepting that Indians or Chinese are more talented. All he is trying to do is try to keep most of the jobs that get outsourced (due to cheaper costs) in the US. India is a developing economy and it will need to depend on the western world for a while before it can be a self-sustained one. Till then India needs to make sure that it gives as many incentives as possible to western corporations to do business in India. Hope that makes sense.
People like ABC are just plain stupid, selfish and racist.
This is a country of immigrants. People who work hard and want to contribute to the country should be allowed to stay and do so. I am sure his grandparents or ancestors came here the same way I did. To work and be able to be part of the dream.
I am on a H1B, in the architectural field, (not IT), and studied hard and learned skills for 10 years to be able to come here.
Diversity is good. It brings more ideas to the country, and different point of views that certainly make companies more competitive and innovative.
I am sorry to say, but most Americans I work with are so stuck on the American way of doing things, that they are not innovative at all…
Folks
Having been on H1B – and am chosing voluntarily to return to back now. I wanted to highlight a few perspectives from the “other side of the table” to fellow Americans
1. h1B workers are not paid less than American counterparts. This is the biggest myth you folks are being fed by Mr Lou Doub(t)s and other members of his ilk. Base minimum pay I have seen so far (having toured whole of US because I am in a sales job now) – is 65 K. My own salary is 100k. Half of my buddies are having salaries in range of 160-170k. So – go to starbucks, have a double espresso and wake up.
2. There are all shades of workers in US as well. Having worked in multiple teams along with American workers, both in my own company as well as client locations, I can say with confidence that I have come across many profiles who, IMHO, were simply “unfit”. I have seen the IT contractors getting sacked left, right and center, and Americans are the last one to face the axe.
IT is a field which by very nature involves dealing with intangible outputs. It requires stronger analytical powers at a more wider level than say creating a burger or a toy (where you design it once and then copy it like a zillion times). I don’t see anything wrong in business owners trying to raise the bar by picking up only the best from both sides of the world.
3. No sane H1 B worker will like to continue here in US for long, unless he/she wants to grow at slow rate of vegetable in a beautiful garden for the rest of his/her life. My Indian salary grows at 15% per annum min, and I get higher responsibilities. My US salary barely grows at 4% per annum (max). Today my saving in Indian salary is higher than that of US (even after conversions). Only people who stay here are either duds (taxi drivers or cyber coolies) or are real geniuses like Vinod Khosla (who, btw, came here in another place and time).
4. Any body who has any creative juices left in them will never stay in US. This is a place where everything is corporatized. Whether it is video chain(blockbuster) , or photocopy shop (fedex) or a coffee store, there are corporates everywhere – with no space for you to start something of your own!! I walk through the skyways of Minneapolis, and I have seen multiple “non-corporate” Mom and Pop shops getting opened and closed within the span of last five years. One has to be a real genius to survive in this hypercompetitive, overcorporatized, heavily networked place or get ready to be confined to the serfdom of cubicle dwellers for the rest of your life!! In India, with a higher growth rate, one can try to create something of one’s own – and hope it to take off with the high growth rate, changing patterns of consumer behaviour and rising middle class.
So – who wants the H1B?
So long and thank you for the fish!!!
It does not make sense for the United States to be issuing H1-B visas. If it made sense, other countries would be doing the same thing.
To my knowledge, H1-B visas don’t grant permanent immigrant status and aren’t a track toward citizenship.
So the only possible result is that it would attract workers who have little interest in contributing to American society.
This is probably why India doesn’t have a program similar to H1-B. Obama would be a fool to expand H1-Bs.
But a visa program that attracts immigrants on a citizenship path who demonstrate an interest in being American would be more wise.
Rep: Mr Kvcpk SIR,
I do understand, our India is still developing country.
But it requires only the Funds to establish either financial,
manufacturing or software industries to emerge into this competitive world but neither man power nor their technical stuff ( as it has them already).
Right now World bank is offering billions of money per annum.
Why can not we utilize them in more effective way.
More over NASSCOM claims, there are 1.5 millions of people in US
who has become L1s via H1B in the recent past 10 years. My opinion: here its very clear, why can not H1Bs return and struggle for their mother land with their acquired knowledge and money .
Here it requires keen attention towards US economy regarding L1s: It wants talented guys to be there for life long to serve them.
Dasvidania.
HI,
Whatever Shane said is exactly true. All the points are valid. If you American’s do not wake up fast you will be today’s Russia in future.
H-1b girl says “People like ABC are just plain stupid, selfish and racist.”
Indians have been visciously and personally attacking Americna citizens for YEARS, and show outrage if they receive nothing but glowing praise from the Americans they displace.
But I’ve learned about the political culture of India, through people I’ve worked with.
And this I know. There would be riots in the streets of India if your government did to you, what our government is doing to us.
And the people displacing would would get rough treatment
First, H1-B workers did get the stimulus check. Also, if you are legal non-alien resident for 5 years, you are considered a citizen for tax purposes so you also get the stimulus check. We also pay for medicare and SS but will never get to see it unless we become citizens. Then again, most people my age will not get to see ss unless there is some reform.
While it’s not always the case, H1-B workers do get paid less than their counterparts, mostly because you are at the employer’s mercy for a work permit. If we could self-sponsor, I believe there would be better and healthier competitive wages. I understand that most of the gripes stated here are towards the IT field. I’m in Finance and have lived in the US for 10.5 years. I did not come here because I wouldn’t be able to earn back at home; I too was lured by “land of opportunities”. In my situation, I’m tired of being at the mercy of my employer and being mistreated. In today’s job market, it is even harder so you just put up with the mistreatment until you can do something about it. Hopefully Canada will be kinder. I hope other H1-B workers on this board have had good experience working in the US.
H1Bs with dependents did not get anything. Not even the $600. IRS said that all receiving parties must have a valid SSN. If your dependent has an ITIN, that means you’re ineligible. I have no idea how they formulated the rule. I have lived in this country for over 10 years now.
Americans work for the government where a US Citizen is required and foreigners are brought in to be America’s “high technology private sector semi-slaves”. The rest of the world is being made into “slaves” for a government elite here. I feel now America may be spending more money than every but at least it will go to many more poorer people than under Bushman. I hope I am wrong here about the government elite but I feel the problem is really the lawyers. Now the Communist Chinese and the elite in Indian and the elite in the US and russia do the same – use and control the talent. Wake UP.
America in only 1/20 of the worlds population and hence if mathematical talent is a uniform distribution we have to import talent – else we loose the magic baby. We dont have the numbers, period. This is a infection point in world mathematical talent – realize it, where the number of math talent are coming from outside the US / Europe for the first time in GREAT numbers much GREATER than the US. All the education in the world for minorities Obama will not change that FACT – we are only 1/20 of the world. This is a great thing for humanity if and only if we all keep hope and love for our neighbors alive and treat our worlds brothers correctly. I say we unite…
We need to treat mathematical talent with respect no matter where it comes from and stop discriminating with pay. UNDERSTAND. You know and I know H1Bs are paid less and you are a fool if you think otherwise. This is not right. Now I hear the White RedNecks that work for Uncle SAM or Uncle Senator saying NO WAY that is not right. Now it has gotten better over the last 20 years a bit but you know the real deal. You that are H1Bs want that Green Card because Lord that means money!!! That is what is driving all this in your homes countries and here in the US.
I feel you H1Bs should have the same rights as us Citizens if they are living in our country with respect to the private sector, period. The problem is they do not have the same right and hence are discriminated against. There is a greater number of H1B talent of course and they are good at math too and now the lawyers have found we bring them in and pay them less – MAKE MORE MONEY and hey we OWN the Intectual Property TOO. Realize for the good of the world to see that ALL MEN and I ALL MEN not just Americans are CREATED EQUAL and stop this using American using Indians using Chinese and realize we are all being used by the lawyers. We are being used by the non-Math talented people. Mathematical talent should not be usee for creating the killing machines. And now they use it to create the internet, chips and make money for the lawyers. All the H1Bs or foreigners and Americans should united against the Greed hunger lawyer baby killing mother killing A holes. We should stand united… I like working with foreigners much better than beaurcrats.
I am an H1B worker and make way more than some of my counterpart American Citizens. Maybe you should stop blaming your failures on somebody else and realize that you may need to brush up on your concepts ans try to do better at work. Most direct hires earn the same and sometimes even more than the regular salary for an Engineer in the company. You probably need to get your facts right when you make such arguments.
XXX I don’t believe you one bit. Can you tell me the difference between a covariant and contravariant tensor cause you make me tense. Talk about Dump are you a GOP which is the party of stupid. How much do you make is my question and what difference does that make. I was talking discrimination and you talk oranges like a monkey. I was saying that both H1Bs and American engineers and for that matter chinese too are being used by our American lawyers or their isometric professsion policians be it communist or “free enterprise”. The solution I was saying was belief in mathematical talent be it here or wherever, India or Africa and treat if with respect. Treat it with equality! I would suggest you try to find something other than a caste system to believe in.
Obamas response to the onslaught of Hi Visas is alarming to say the least. Regarding technical competencies of Americans, before George Bushs reign of horror, Americans were absolutely on top technically. Nowadays, because they are competing with foreigners that are sponsored by corporations that house them and typically locate them in areas where they can usually walk to work, the Indians have almost no expenses. Americans however are at a severe financial disadvantage. Because of this, it’s no longer financially advantageous for students to pursue a career in IT where they will have to kill themselves to barely make a living, and often cannot even afford to pay back their student loans. Its no longer worth it for them to stay cutting edge. This has happened to people I know who despite being brilliant and degreed, have been forced into LONG TERM unemployment. The Indians on the other hand often receive their educations for free. Sadly, Barak Obama appears to be nothing more than to use a term he coined “Bush/Cheny Light”. Republicans have decimated this country and according to his statement above, Obamma doesn’t appear to have what it take to put it right.
Hi Chris. President-Elect Obama is a Lawyer and not an Engineer. He would not know a partial differential if it were written for him. Lets us coin a phrase President-Elect Obama used to get elected Chris ” Let us not loose Hope that we will overcome the H1B visa barrier.” I know the response as is said in the above statement: “We need to educate the minorities to fill the need for H1Bs.” Talk about bait and switch. Again Chris what else can you expect from a Lawyer. I suggest for President-Elect to read the biography of George Boole who gives us Boolean Algebra and what the Lawyers of his day did to him. Such are Lawyers cause they make the real money from H1Bs I am subspect to concluding.
Hi friends,
regarding the prospects of giving teachers ,doctors,lawyers,drivers,cleaners H1 I can vouch for you my friend I would be willing to pay the american salary for them in india if only they can deliver the minimum in india. In india teachers don’t knw what they teach ,doctors suck,and lawyers bribe the judges. And you know we have a big pack of foolish politicians so we gave Sonia Maino of Italy instant Citizenship to rule us. US govt is giving H1s to Technical and Business graduates of India bcuz they are the best brain in the world. Unfortunately you cant say the same about the teachers, lawyers etc. You know what friends, UK allows immigration for Teacher and Lawyers with special points but till now I have to see even one who has applied for that. Best of Luck america. Stop H1b and all your jobs wil be shipped to india and i would love that. Bcuz i want to see US IT go down the drain, like it’s automobile industry.
And by the way one of my friends from US (a white who is not in the IT industry) told me on a lighter vain ask all these complaining americans to write down the name of California governor. We did that and we found that 80 percent of born americans got it wrong,but onlu 60 percent of those on h1 got it wrong. So, I think the problem lies with your education. In India they are born to tackle on competition from day one, there is 1 to 20 competition for school admission and at the best school it is 1:200,when they apply for admission in Engineering it is 1:400 and for medicine it is 1:1000. When they try for a job it is 1:100 to 1:100000. That kind of competition you can’t even dream of . If you want America to be on TOP of world, you have to grow and be competitive. If you want your government somehow to support you despite your taking your life for granted, you would be only ruining the future of america. And we ,the people of China and India (Not those having an American dream) would love that very much. We look forward to seeing Obama stopping outsourcing, stopping H1bs,stopping F1s,stopping foreign trade. Closing down 75 percent of US International Airports, Fencing borders with armed guards every 10 meters(Most of you can find jobs there for sure).God save America.
And I am from India and I get paid 45,000 USD(INR 16,00,000 as per USD conversion rate 3 months back).
We don’t come cheap. They can never get people like me in US even if they paid 160000 USD. And if they want me to go US i would charge 200000 USD. I know America is cheap can’t afford me..may be China.. but America not in the near future for sure…..:)
hi
US Citizen it is funny you talking about riots on Indian streets ..who told you that..we have 1 million illegals bangladeshis in India…half a million srilankans and millions form unknown places.Some of them are MPs..MLAs..(Like ur congressmen or senators..can you think of that a person without visa and passport being US Senator but it happens in India..and they kill train loads of Indians buring them them alive setting Ablaze the train.and America likes these killers and want protection for them saying it is Human rights..etc etc…So wake up US Citizen dont live like a Frog in a well. There is a huge ocean out there the size of which you wouldn’t even comprehend even in ur dreams or your nightmares.
If I had my way I would bite to death the biggest fraudster on the surface of earth..Sonia Maino from Italy who is illegally in india, got her name on electoral list even without taking up indian citizenship,and now Runs the Indian goverment and signs a deal that would profit US to the tune of Trillions of dollars, cheats india to the tune of 100 crores per day using shit head Indian politicians as her slaves (they touch their foreheads on her feet every morning..else they loose their ministerial posts)..she has her own group of mischief makers who she uses to terrorize india if they donot vote for her toadies. 1 Billion H1 visa holders in US cant do the damage she has done to India. You can do whatever you want do America with all the H1s but Can we Indians have a chance to hang this American Agent traitor in India. Is that a deal!
Jo Jimbo. Nice to read you blog entries my Friend. I am an American and I understand your frustration. I feel the correct solution for both us in America, India, China to work togather on this issue of Mathematically based jobs. The problem as I see it are the lawyers and politicans Jo. Hear the the US our IEEE sees that the problem is the unequal constraits H1Bs are put too. I firmly believe Jo it is not American, Israel, Indian etc racial suppority. We are all equal Jo. The problem is how the Talent is treated is the world I feel. I suggest that we in this together Jo and both want to make the world a better place. Correct. I Suggest you and I see that powerful wish to control us Jo. Mathematics has moved from Eygpt, Greece, Europe, US. Now it is moving I feel to Asia more. Remember Love is the Answer Jo.
There is some Obama Hope. I just read that President-Elect Obama will indeed have the Department of Labor be more involved in making sure too things:
(1) That the H1B is paid the prevailing wage.
(2) That the H1B does not displace a compariable American worker.
Let us hope that indeed this is done.
When I read in the above statement that President-Elect Obama considers the need for the H1B until miniorites are truely represented in the high tech sector let me say two things:
(1) Women are not 50% of the Mathematical related work areas and are will we have H1Bs until they are.
(2) Why has the number of Americans in Computer Science markedly decreased during this time that H1B has increased.
As I said before I belief that Mathematical Talent is a part of the brain and that it is uniformly distributed over the earth – with rich and poor alike I might add. Since we are 1/20 of the worlds population we get 1/20 of that biochemistry. If we wish to increase it we must import it and import it we must I agree. However we here in America and the H1Bs need to have our right protected and I agree with too things:
(1) The H1Bs are paid the pervailing wage. Note that this is indeed a Normal Distribution too. Not just the average. But average to average and above average to above average etc.
We must correlate the wages between the American and the H1B. If this is not done or we fail to do this correlation correctly I suggested we let the free market forces do it. That is why I say give the H1Bs the Green Card on entry to the US. That way the H1B worker can freely move to employment that they like and the pay that they like.
(2) That the H1B does not replace an American worker. I agree with this too because for the time being. Unfortunately we do not have a world government and this I feel is necessary until we do.
Let us all wish President-Elect Obama the best. He is inheriting some bad Bush legacies I feel. Indeed let us pray that President-Elect Obama being the first Black President success and inspiration! Let us all work to help.
By the way I saw Bill Gates on TV last night on the situation room. He was asked a question on outsoursing and used the amount of money received by Microsoft from outside the US as the reason for outsourcing saying that a much higher ratio is spent on US employees. I dont necessarily agree with that. But boy was I surprised very much towards the good when he had one big thing to ask of Obama. The Situtation Room of course keep you glued to the screen to hear this. I would have bet: Increase H1Bs but man when Bill Gates said double the amount of foreign aid I thought “God Bless Him and Rock-n-Roll”. Like Ted Turner, Bill Gates is indeed trying to make it into heaven I think by helping people. Nice to hear that. Now maybe the reference to the the particular static, (Number of workers from a country) / ( Amount spent on Microsoft Products) is seen in a better light.
For those who believe that Indians or Chinese are any smarter, I have a news for you. When the cost of labor in your country increases enough, the business man will drop you like a dirty rag and move on to the next country.
You are being played.
Joe I agree with you that basically people will use people and use people unfairly. When you sell out your own countrymen in favor of foreign workers it smells of “slavery”. I am afriad we are building a “government elite” with foreign workers as our “slaves.” I disagree with this. All should be treated EXACTLY the same if foreign workers are brought into this country. They should be granted citizenship hence they would not be “indentured servants”. But then again the task masters would lose as they have no one to discriminate against. Then they may hire their countrymen first.
I agree with Joe —- You are being played.
OK. This is 101th response. There are 1 full year’s worth of comments here and there are as many arguments against H1 as there are for H1 (or at least H1 workers).
Guys,here is my 2+2 cents (due to inflation) on H1:
1. Abolish the third party consulting companies first (they act like pimps), whoever is found to be breaking the law ban the organization and the owner
2. Put some real criteria for approving H1 (may be basic tests like spoken and written communication, degrees from foreign institutions recognized by embassy, a technical test by tech workers in style of MAT?) — seriously a lot of H1B frauds and incompetents would be thrown out and a lot of US jobs will be created to evaluate these people. Tax the business that hire them for this purpose.
3. Put some heavy taxation on outsourced services, to a great extent it would eat up the cost advantage.
I am not the US citizen yet this looks like a solid logical solution. The way this system is currently managed is seriously bad and no better than legalized slavery. STOP THIS!!! I stayed in USA on L1 as well as H1 and I know the plight. Ever since then I try to talk people to not to pursue the route but people flock to embassy with a rush comparable to gold rush. Just because of this, a lot of production/services in my country is hampered (not enough good people, all are fighting for green card in US). But whom am I talking to? :sigh :sigh
Oh, one more thing,
Abolish L1 – the most exploited route to ship jobs outside. Reason? Look at how TCS/Wipro/Infosys/Satyam operates…. one co-ordinator at onsite on L1 working day and night and others in offshore spending nights to maintain code.
Hi, I am an alien.
In my planet here I would be paid 40K tops (in local currecy), and in the US I have a job offer for 100K. And consider that the conversion rate from US to my planet’s currency is around 2-to-1. So it’s already advantageous for me to go there and stay due to the 150% better salary, and if I have to return after making some savings my money will suddenly be worth 300% due to the low costs of living here.
Globalization is a bitch, isn’t it? First-world countries have used the conversion rate, economic prowess and other dirty tricks for decades to buy entire companies in poor countries like mine for the price of bananas, and now we have to pay $200/month for a telephone service that used to cost $1/month before, and this goes to the US mainly, maybe not to US workers but certainly to US corporations. Free market… long live the lowest bidder and the american corporate/banking cartel which answers to no one but themselves!
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very good post
“Nothing comes to you as a birth right.. except your own talent, skill, dedication and hardwork.. period.”
First Lets take the situation of an indian in india.. All the politicians are corrupt there, infrastructure is bad.. and compared to america where atleast the taxes paid are put to good use, in india it directly goes into the politician’s pocket.. So an ambitious person who is smart, intelligent and hardworking will look for a better life.. He looks for the easiest way to success.. He sees that in the developed countries of the west us/europe where the amneties, system, facilities are all better. Now lets say these developed countries close their gates completely.. no globalization.. no american companies in india or indian workers in america.. so what will these capable/hardworking people do..? they will try to clean up the scum in their own back yard.. it won’t be as easy as getting a h1 visa and working in US (which is the easier path).. but eventually they will clean up.. and then US will no longer be the number 1.. I am not just making up a statement here, that is just biased or something.. I am saying this based on pure statistics, based on which the future seems pretty obvious.. there are 320 million people between the ages of six and 16 (that is more than the entire US pop) in india. In a decade, India will be home to 800 million people of working age.. So lets say that indians or chinese are ‘cheap labour’ as you put it, who are just willing to slog longer hours for peanuts and are not better qualified or smarter than a ‘native american’.. but even if half of these 800 million are talented and hardworking, that will be double the population of america.. !!! and 4 hands are always better than 2.. so down the lane, maybe after a few years or a few decades.. the sheer size of the working force itself should make these countries superpowers..! so how has the US been surviving as a superpower all these years and how can it continue to do so? why did russia disintegrate and diminish.. capitalism? communism? no.. all that is secondary.. US is the only country in the world where a person from any corner of the world can survive.. in the same street, you can find restaurants that are italian, mexican, american, chinese, french, indian, japanese, thai.. you name it you have it!!! It is a country where discrimination against race, ethnicity is to the minimum.. and as americans you should be proud of it.. and i appreciate and respect each american for that.. for the value that they give to an individual.. and these are the good things that have been keeping america ticking.. america right from the beginning has been a land of opportunities.. where the best from all parts of the world flock in to come and make this place a paradise that they can share and enjoy.. the day it stops this, is the day it will start the downfall.. History shows that there has never been one superpower ‘for ever’.. eventually evrthing that goes up has to come down.. and it is just a cycle..
Indians in US are the 2nd richest community next only to jews and are the highest educated community with more doctrates/postgraduates/graduates then any other community.. this doesnt mean that they are better than people of some other ethnicity, because for every talented indian there are 9 more back in india who are lazy and inefficient.. If US closes its doors, then the same intelligent/efficient person will remain put in india and will try to create opportunities and even get the 9 lazy indians to work efficiently.
Many of the ‘native americans’ on this thread where saying “let the corporates ship the jobs offshore and let the ‘cheap labour’ work from their own third world countries.. we dont want them here clogging up our country.. ” Do you know that US generates 40 % of the waste in the world and consumes 25 % of the world’s energy.. and this is consumed by a mere 5 % of the world’s population..? it fills me up with loath n i am sickened to see this.. every day from each home two huge white garbage bags full of thrash is generated and dumped into the garbage box! and for answering a customer’s 30 dollar router questions as some one put it.., an indian back home will earn 400 dollars a month using which he will feed his retired parents, wife and 2 kids!!! and it is not because things are ‘cheap’ in india.. it is because right from childhood every indian is taught to ‘not waste’ anything.. dont leave the water running, dont waste fuel, use less of plastic and disposable stuff, use stainless steel cutlery, dont waste food… if something is left over give it to the poor old man at the end of the street..
You are worried that 65,000 jobs are being lost by americans or L1 visas are being given by the 1000s.. but you don’t know how many lives are dependent on the same meagre 500 dollars that you pay a month for swearing at an indian that your TV’s remote is not working or your remote’s battery is not working..
If you are unemployed you get social security, food coupons etc…, but you feel your jobs are being ’stolen’ by foreign labour who are willing to work like slaves.. But why are these people willing to work like ’slaves’? that is because they need that job more than you do.. you have probably never seen what real poverty is.. there is another side of this world that is lot grimmer, darker and sad than you can imagine.. for u studying 4-5 hours a day for 4 years in grad school with airconditioning, labs and libraries, laptops, gyms, fitness centers, swimming pools etc in the campus is a hardship.. well my own dad used to walk for 4 miles evryday without footwear for 8 years to go to primary and high school before he eventually got his first set of loafers.. Thanks to him I am in a much better position in my life now.. Increasing or decreasing visas, or passing a law is not going to change a damn thing.. if u want to survive.., then listen to darwin.. and get rolling.. do or die.. and like i said..
“Nothing comes to you as a birth right.. except your own talent, skill, dedication and hardwork.. period.”
I lived and worked in Silicon Valley for 16 years. I have been programming since I was 15 (25 years) – long before India even had electricity, let alone computers. I was run out of my own industry, my own state, and my own career buy MILLIONS of invading Indians. In 1998 when we Americans were running things, the economy was booming. India bought PR “news” stories in our media of labor shortages so they could jam FOUR MILLION of their grifters into the USA. They took over Silicon Valley. The deal in 1998 was they would go home after the boom. Not only have they not gone home, but they’ve taken over Silicon Valley.
At the same time, they are incompetent. Silicon Valley continues to lose jobs. This is because Indians are taking over jobs formerly done by Americans, and then the Indians can’t do the jobs and the companies all collapse. This is the real reason for the job loss.
And they send their paychecks right out of the country and back to India. Imagine FOUR MILLION workers sending OUR CAPITAL every to weeks. It’s BILLIONS of dollars. These faking frauds come here, work 6 years, move from company to company, destroying everything in their path, then go home millionaires are 28 because of the exchange rate.
There are hardly any white Americans left in Silicon Valley – the same white Americans who created Silicon Valley and IT have been driven out by the Indians. Now that India has TAKEN OVER Silicon Valley, the U.S. economy is collapsing.
I watched Indian programmers every single day ask Americans how to do things. Some Indians don’t have any education at all and their degrees cannot be verified because their schools are deep in the jungles of India somewhere, if not some hellhole garage in the 3rd world.
H-1B and importation of Indian workers is one fo the greatest frauds in the history of the USA.
It’s time to DEPORT all these people NOW. After all, that was the deal when we allowed them in in 1998.
Why should millions of Indians get to have jobs in the U.S. while millions of Americans go unemployed? If your answer is Americans are too stupid, then show me where the Indian operating system is, or name even one software product to come out of India.
Bbo,
Deporting all of them would mean that serious shortfall in workforce in USA. That would trigger the offshoring in a massive scale and eventually within 6 months, you will see that all jobs are moved to India/China. It’s just a foolishness..
However your outrage is somewhat valid, however the solution President Obama is proposing is the correct one. Smoothen out the transition from H1b to Greencard for them, let them work for any employer and let employer directly employ them. Meanwhile also build up skills in STEM area and give tax breaks to US company for hiring US citizens.
I agree with President Obama . America need to hold the foreign workers under H1B Classification as long as they do their degree in America. No need of L1 Program. H1B employees with degree in US are very much capable of doing L1 Jobs.
Actually lots of companies are abusing of the law. And even if that’s bad they actually have loopholes which they look for outside companies to bring contractors.
I can tell from personal experience I was at Microsoft and I saw how they eliminated a whole department of US Citizen and hired more non US Citizens a team which was 25 people and there were only 3 US Citizens. Get’s even worse with all the guys that were outsource in China and India.
So you do the math.
As a project manager I know that in IT is better to have someone with the best skills that can do the work of two(2) no matter the price rather than having cheap labor lacking the skills doing the job of half(1/2).
I’ve personally seem projects FAIL just because of trying to get cheap labor which never gets the best people for the job when there are more than enough qualified US Citizens.
I even seen seminars for HR to have Legal ways to deny work to US Citizens.
I think this looks plain anti-American But I let you guys be the judge.
Just ask US Sen. Charles Grassley or Congressman Pascrell.
Look in http://www.programmersguild.org
Here are the facts
http://www.programmersguild.org/factsheets/2009_H1b_media_fact_sheet.pdf
First of all.. Before you go an bash H1 workers.. Most of them are well qualified and they have at least 7 years of experience. You are telling me that you want to employ an american straight from school who has no field experience another person who has gone through the same american college but the different is that he has gotten experience through internships and all the other sides. Where as the normal american has not tried that. In todays IT world you don’t pick an high school student to do real work as they will bring down the economy. You need qualified people. Yes americans have qualified people but they would be asking for a higher salary. look at it both ways.
You need to stop blaming the H1B program which is only a manifestation of the number of foreign students who come to the US each year to earn Masters or advanced degrees. I am doing a Masters in Electrical engineering at a top 20 US university and I can tell you that in all the classes or research labs there are over 75% Indians and Chinese. Visit any engineering class in any university here for a masters degree and see what I mean. Very few Americans pursue an advanced degree and as a result it is the foreign workers who are recruited by companies to do the jobs that require skills. Why is it that so few Americans are doing advanced degrees in STEM ?
I have seen the F-1 and Masters program being abused by universities as well. Most students who come here to do an MS degree are unfunded and universities make a killing on the tuition and fees. Each year the number of admissions to students from India is increasing because universities realize that these students will come to the US for a better life even if it means paying tuition fees for 2 years.
This is the ground reality and unfortunately unless the overall competitiveness increases, the H1Bs and high tech jobs will go to those who have earned degrees that require them.
BTW I am an Indian student and the company that I will be working for is by no means hiring ‘cheap’ labor. My salary would be 75K after an MS in EE at the age of 23, and is very similar for other students who will be graduating with me this year. That ‘cheap’ labor argument doesn’t hold any water for those that qualify for the jobs.
You all need to watch this :
http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=770111630
What are the H1-Bs and large fat cat corporations gonna go after the US dollar crashes?
There is going to be way less consumption in the US, with depressed wages. That may be a good thing, but large corporations and governments all over the planet are going to fall.
Can the wages Indians and Chinese make in their countries feed the multinational corporate beast with its high prices for products? I doubt it.
Inspired INDIAN has said it all…
All you American people bashing H1s ..i guess you don’t even care to read it all rit. Change your life style show more respect to food and natural resources…Its because of us (the so called developing economies) tat you people are able to afford such lavish life styles..an American guy working at burger king will have a car and he has to use his car to buy a candy bar at a store next street..
despite being a poorer country we(indians) pay 4 time more for Fuel…
ahh who am i taking to? you people don’t care rit ..if its there you will find ways to waste it…
I am presently in the US and i see buses drive around in hope tat some one will board them..who wants to wait a min i have my hummer rit…
You people laterally are at the mercy of Chinese reserve bank and walmart is ur life line..go fix tat first
to all Americans a request from a fellow human being…Respect the world my friends and try to learn a bit about it…every one has a life to live…we are all born with the same rights..and please stop squabbling about a few legal workers ….. Please save some money rather than wasting it all on a weekend and bend your backs there is a rough ride coming your way you brought it on yourself no H1 is responsible for your present state..
finally
Be an ant not the grasshopper
if you want a better life….
Peace
I am a H1 worker.the pay i was offered in the beginning is 60000k and it is changed to 45000k due to this economy.Will any American
wish to work for this pay for about 13 hours every day.I don’t understand why you guys go around to blame H1 workers.If you could do this your companies could have hired you rather opting for an immigrant worker.
Hi
I have something to add to the discussion. The whole depressive economic situation is adding to the negativity of some of the remarks here.
I am Indian and I study in an American University in Texas. It puzzles me when I see so few Americans in the department of Computer Science. The reason I feel is that Computer Science is hard and involves long hours of hard study developing your skills. The employers also have high expectations from their prospective employees in the interviews. And most Americans have enough alternatives to choose as a career then become a programmer.
Let me say I have the utmost respect for a lot of American students I have encountered. They are honest, some of their work is top notch and they are passionate about what they do. The Americans in my university enjoy a lot of extra advantages in terms of the scholarships they get and the employment opportunities.
Most Indians on the other hand are here for the money. And by money, I mean the power of the dollar in terms of its exchange rate with the Indian Rupee.
I feel American corporations are the reason I am here. These MNC’s have expanded so much that their interests and revenues require their presence in a lot of countries. So obviously, you would need a HUGE workforce.
Now that you need a huge workforce, you want to employ people. You start looking for qualified Americans. You need 10 people to do the project. And then you see, only 5 Americans graduated out of computer science at your local university. And 4 of them have already been hired for higher salaries by a bigger company. What do you do? Hire the one American remaining and then you have 9 other jobs to fill up. Now who fills up the remaining 9 jobs? Lets import the workforce: give them H1B visas, get them here, the Indians and the Chinese. They don’t mind long hours for a relatively lesser pay because they have lived in harsher living conditions and they would like the comfort America has to offer.
So who’s to blame? no one!
The only way to fight the current situation is to
1. Come down hard on all the illegal recruiters that try to provide H1 workers with substandard skills.
2. Let the companies recruit from those Indians that have studied at a university in the United States. If they have graduated from an American University, they would obviously be skilled enough( this would prevent from people who submit fake skills in their resumes and try to get jobs)
3. Focus on long term Visas. Make sure people that a company really wants to hire are hired for a longer period and given more incentives to become a part of America.
Temporary short term measures are like visiting the prostitute for sex. A worker on a short term contract would never be of benefit in the long run. He would just take the money he earned and return home.
4. Companies should be allowed to tie down foreign workers to contracts that are binding. What I have seen from a lot of my fellow Indians is an alarming lack of loyalty for their employer. They jump the minute they get a slightly better offer from another company. Contracts would allow the company more stability in terms of not losing personnel every 6 months.
And there is one more thing I would like to say to any Americans reading my post. Do not blame a H1-person or any foreign workers for their presence here. We are all being played by a bigger player: Globalization and greedy huge corporations.
And I would like to thank Mike in post# 32. It was enlightening.
No, I am not resident of USA. However, as other engineers, I was interested. However, I thought H1B is largely oppressive and prone to abuse and not attractive in long term.
1. H1B is tied to a company and hence I need to be satisfied with what it gives.
2. Spouse cannot work.
All the above I need to bear till I get permanent residence.
I think to make it fairer, H1B should be available on individual basis so that the individuals can compete on equal basis.
However, let us face it. A company can if it really wants can produce all the software from cheap country like India/China. If the US company does not do it, an european company will do it. Guess what, who will be more profitable. Jog your intentions/business skills. If you were a businessman, where would you base your business.
You cannot be isolated. Call us H1B servant /slaves or whatever. It just means that you think that Indians work hard and you want yourselves to be sitting comfortably. It does not happen that way dear. What you really want is to have not only good economy in US but a strong economy in two highly populous regions. This will ensure that demand will not die down for products and services. For that business needs to expand, people all over the world need to work and earn high money and buy products. In short term, it might mean that it will be lower money for you. Compared to other parts of the world, it will be much higher anyway.
Wakeup, it is globalization. Nobody is immune. Your twin towers falls, I guess I will not be surprised if the native country of the terrorists who planted it would have got affected.
Americans are stupid and lazy, thats why they can’t get jobs!!!
I spent two years getting my Masters degree in India, I will go to America and work for less than the greedy lazy beer drinking fat couch potato!
$45K a year!!! Ill send 30K home and retire in a few years!
Work for less or stay home.
Ravish, that is a very negative response.
If Americans are stupid and lazy, it would not have been a great country.
As I said, there is a great need for both India and US to come out stronger out of the recession. We need to unleash an energy.
Obama seems to be too socialist and likes to receive attention. He does not seem to be a leader that I hoped for.
to Bbo, your comment is the most offensive/racist one according to me, this is wat u said:
“I have been programming since I was 15 (25 years) – long before India even had electricity, let alone computers. I was run out of my own industry, my own state, and my own career buy MILLIONS of invading Indians.”
dude, if they achieved all this in so less time then either they are super smart (which proves highly skilled labor point) or you are super dumb.
secondly, u mite have been programming from last 25 years in COBOL or PASCAL but things got changed in all these years, there is JAVA, ruby on Rails (m sure most of u here bashing indians and IT dont have much knowledge about the latest tech).
Thirdly, wud you guys stay back after 5pm to complete the work ever or is your family always on ur mind including your dog and tomatoes growing in garden. My friend hard work brings success in todays economy and not growing tomatoes unless you are skilled in selling them.
fourth point, why is Govt not looking at call center jobs, why cant u guys stay up in nite and talk on phone, nobody ever starts as manager in a job unless u r working at mcdonalds or BK.
Fifth, why cant u guys manage dunkin donuts or gas stations and clean up plates and serve orders, they are also jobs (which many indians do).
Point is why DOUBLE STANDARDS?
American Greatness comes from freedom and equality at all levels, if you cant understand tht then you r not a true citizen.
America is a country created by immigrants for immigrants and tht is a lesson in history everybody shoud have.
If you are so righteous give ur jobs to American Indians.
If immigrants are reduced or thr arrival is hindred in anyway thn it will be difficult even for GOD to SAVE AMERICA.
Go figure the truth on how those H-B’s (Indians) really think of us(ravish). As for The “Cool One” if you’re so educated learn how to spell correctly.My gosh you would not believe the amount of misspelled words and terrible grammar I encounter on a daily basis; and this is handed off to customers. I work within a team and I might add, the only American citizen (Just a quota) and I am the only one who can script, troubleshoot correctly etc.. Oh by the way I have 15 years of experience. Not to mention every time I have an idea, that is good and will better the company the first words out of their mouth is, “No, No, No, No, No” My god man learn how to say something versus, “No, No, No, No”. I don’t think Americans are mad that Indians have jobs here in the US…. I think it is the discrimination. For crying out loud listen to the American-Indian, not Native American but yes American-Indian who posted above by the name of Student, who cant even land a job here in his own country; that prove my point.
This notion that Indians are smarter than Americans is the corporate strategy to make everyone believe this nonsense. If you want to debate the American experience in the IT field this is the cause and effect of hiring H1-B’s only for so long, for you supposedly highly educated people out there, I hope you know cause and effect.
One other note, if the H1-B’s are so smart why don’t they build their own country and contribute to the global economy. Do not feed us Americans ”This is the land of immigrants” crap…the immigrants that landed here in the past came to America to live AS AMERICANS!, there was no turning back to their homeland, they accepted and wanted the U.S to be theirs.
There is terrible discrimination within the U.S IT field since this H1-B phenomenon started. There are now Indians that are managers only hiring H1-B Indians….this is ridiculous.
Don’t take me wrong I am not a racist but it is hard not to be prejudice when you are discriminated against for so long.
Just a note America brought great minds from foreign lands to better the country i.e. Albert Einstein, Konrad Dannenberg and so on. By no means are these H1-B’s in question are bringing great fruits to the country
to food for thought,
you r so preoccupied with ur superior english language (a false and stale thought probably coz of food you eat) that u forgot tht u r on a blog and not in an essay competition. as far as my english capabilities r concerned I have TOEFL 100% and GRE 750/800 in verbal exam to back it up even though its not my mother tongue now think abt urself, I can challenge u for a vocab drill and u probably will not be able to answer most questions.
but again nothing personal, instead of learning from Indians u wud rather bash thm for spelling bcoz it hurts ur ego (false ego).
The point is as long as ppl not give this superiority complex they will suffer coz if your are great sumbody greater is waiting to take over frm you.
So how wud you tackle tht: simple try to excel in ur work so as to reach greater heights and not try to undermine others.
regarding great minds frm foreign lands, go back ur family tree and tell me which great lineage you belong too as u also r an immigrant (assuming ur not American Indian)
FYI American Indians are Native Indians and Indian Americans are Indians who took American Citizenship. Some food for thought.. lolll
In the whole post of “Food for thought” all tht he talks about is others comments and does not bring anything new onto the table, tht shows probably you need some food for thought, for sure.
dude nobody is saying only Indians r smart, a lot of americans r 10 times smarter thn some Indians and these guys r working at very high positions. You can’t generalize, not all indians r equally smart but those on h1b are surely smart.
I am reading way too much about how the H1B folks are being abused by being in America..
One post on this page went so far as to say that Americans have enslaved the H1B people..
Lets get a few things straight-
1) You are not a slave, you can leave or stfu.
2) Being here does keep an American from having YOUR job. Its not likley they would ship over seas.
3) L1 needs to be abolished, H1B needs to be damn hard to get for both corporate and people.
And let me use this last comment to retouch on point one I made.. Anyone caught bitching that they are so sad being on H1B and how they are abused should simply leave. Just leave. Go away. Your not a slave, you can set your affairs in order, quit the job and leave. Your nothing more than a victim of your own choice that you continue to make over and over. Get off the cross kiddo.
“I am a victim of the life I have made and I refuse to make a change due to the options. I like my crappy life more than other options and someone must be to blame, it must be the nation that is offering me the best crappy life available to me.”
Let me be the first to apoligize for you having a job. Its truly a shame. Now leave the nation, please, for both of us.
Again…Cool, you can not spell.
again Food for thought (or no food for thought or deprived of food for thought or frustrated food for thought), you are very STUPID, so please keep helping others and remain stupid…..
hahaha…..
Hi,
I am an H1B holder from India – agreed. many service oriented countries unlike the western product oriented category – rely on bigger economies to thrive on – that is how we run our bread and butter.
The milk has been spilled. In the interim of this harsh decision being made – many foreign workers have invested sums of money back home to get here. I particularly do not care about H1B holders who got here through their firms in India/China etc. I am concerned about students who invested in this country. Got educated here – loaned money from banks here or back home to the equivalent of a minimum – +/- 70 k.
There was a dream. The dream was sanctioned in a better economy and it was encouraged by the American govt.
If a major chunk has to be sent back or whatsoever – I dont think they should be the ones who boosted or contributed to the economy. We atleast got here and paid a price.
I am an Indian Who Did Masters in USA from a pretty good University. I have a Job now H1B (I am lucky it’s not easy to get one).
+++ Why US governenment NOT cutting down on F-1 (Student Visa) – Why is no one talking about it?
Ans–> Tuition fees OK. US government Extract
excessive fees from foriegn student (3-4 times ) more than an American student . So money comes from India/China to US – just to improve the facilities in US universities. There are strict restrictions for these students – they cant work. They beg for a $7/- an hour job in Burger King in their gradschool. So its struggle. When an average American student drives a BMW to gradschool – a foriegn student rides a bike (bi-cycle) or he walks . Above all they pay huge tuition fees. So why are you guys not seeing this part. You are getting incoming $$$ from a foriegn Visa Program. This is improving your economy.
+++Lets be Fair – What is wrong in giving these students 20,000 H1B Visas a year ?
Ans:- They have already invested 30-40 K in Tuition fees in USA. I feel they should be given a chance to work and enjoy in this country. Atleast to pay off their Debts back home, which they incurred while graduating in this country.
Jacob,
They are not cutting F1 because its not about kicking people out, its about job preservation.
You say that the foriegn students beg for jobs in fast food – so do most students. I don’t know of any early 20’s student making six figure, or even half that.. Even one third of that…
Your way, way off point that the avarage US student drives a BMW to school. Offendingly off reality. I think perhaps you only notice them, because I went to LOTS of school and NEVER had a friend with even a used BMW…. My car was… Oh wait, I rode the bus for SEVEN YEARS, I couldn’t afford a bike – you lucky cry baby. BTW my family is far from poor, we’re just not spoiled. No different for most kids I knew.
to your +++… You so madly fail to seperate H1B from Student visa its nutters. Just because someone gets to study here should not be a goldcard to have their lives spent here working. We don’t make money off an H1B working in the US, which you elude to earlier in your post, its a sacrafice to let others come here and benefit from the nation.
As far as their student debts – The people of this nation appear to owe visiting students, which is immature to suggest. I don’t feel the nation owe’s you for your studies here, the citizens in this nation should not sacrafice jobs for themselves because you were kind enough to study in our nation.
Joshua,
I do feel for that situation when presented that you are facing a debt to overcome. Many americans are hundreds of thousands in debt because, lets face it, life sucks right now.
How do we seperate one persons debts from another as a cause for helping them though. I am confident that its not just visiting students with student debts upwards of 100k and beyond.
Sadly, this is not an easy time for everyone and when there are 5 jobs for 7 people, there has to be a choice made about the other two.
A) Americans that starve?
B) Americans told to find work in another nation?
C) Americans told to fight their way through as equils to non-Americans?
Its not nice and I don’t blame anyone thats offended by it, its pretty crappy. But the truth is that its hard as hell on those two people and its not easy to see how ‘job preservation in america’ is not followed with ‘for americans’.. We’re not forcing greencard citizens out, they have gone through the lengthly process to show they want to stay here long term.
This is addressing people, I know two just like this, that come here and want to be H1B because they don’t like Americans but want to gain from the nation. They are not supporting this nation because they are ’saving money to leave and never speak to any of us again’ because our money will let them retire early. That money is not helping our economy when its shipped overseas.
The policy is not even aimed to remove active H1B. This is only to prevent future H1B to help fight our unemployment rate…. So… Please someone explain where this is so unfair?
Think of it this way:
‘Our nation is growing short of food for our people, we can not allow the normal influx of hungry people from elsewhere who want us to share the food’
Its all love, but self preservation as a nation is an importiant consideration in reality. Getting back to reality – it sucks for everyone in the world right now, if you haven’t noticed, life is shitty these days.
BTW Joshua,
I do fully respect your point, its just that as my last line said – things are bad all over. We’re all rapidly loosing our stability in all corners of all lives.
If you think in terms of numbers, there are currently about 150 million people in the labor force in the US. The yearly cap for new H1B visas is 65,000. This is just a drop in a sea … so all this “immigrants are taking our jobs” is a little stretched if not ridiculous. Plus, we live in a global economy, times are changing, get used to it.
More numbers:
- a person can stay on H1B for a max of 6 years. That means that at any given time, there are 390,000 H1B holders.
-the number of bachelor degree holders is about 25% of the working population which is roughly 37,500,000 people. So, the H1B visa holders represent about 1% of the total bachelor degree holders in the US.
-In my opinion, that’s a pretty poor reason to blame the H1B holders for bringing down the salaries for americans or for taking their jobs. And this is especially since they come here educated and therefore the US doesn’t have to invest anything in their education. So, a gain for the US from the start.
No Pun intended to anyone on this or any forum. I just thought Ill send this around
http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20090303/bs_bw/feb2009tc20090228990934
I agree with Dora , I am an H1B visa holder. From my experience what I have seen for an H1 B visa holder is that …they are best of the breed. Moreover they work here for only 6 years .So that does not really cause a job loss. H1B visa holder comes to USA to get a better opportunity to get a better pay . They are quite hard working and are available for cheaper rates . For those who are not happy for H1B visa workers ,pls let me know if you would have been running a business what would have been your choice . A cheaper worker or a costlier one . Given this would be a permanent case. So even if this is been stopped for time being i think if we are in a global economy then this will continue . For that matter even a chinese and indian job can get outsourced to a cheaper option. Basic driving factor is price . (Apologies to all the spelling monitors and gramatical experts …. I use english to convey my thoughts so I am not so keen on grammer)
Guys,
Instead of this back and forth Can all of the intellectuals ask themselves a small question.
If an american is skilled and qualified to get a particular IT job, lets say a specialized job dont u think you would be hired?
Or atleast dont you think you would make an effort to be competetive and get hired. Why is that not happening. Heres why..
To begin with how many of you people who are hellbent on getting H1Bs out of this country know SAP.
For instance forget even having the skill to work, just plain knowledge about the Enterprise Software Systems from SAP.
I conducted a small survey of my own and i can tell you not many….that means really not many.1/10. Thats just one software there are million others
Im not trying to undermine anybody’s knowledge but there are somethings that some people are specialized in and have worked for it, I bet most of the H1Bs have a minimum of bachelors degree in Engineering with a huge percentage also having a Masters Degree.
How many of the guys here who are against can boast of such a profile. Be honest and count yourself.
All these big companies that employ H1s do pay handsomely but unfortunately there are these consulting firms that come in between and take a chunk of H1B’s pay. Thats a seperate issue but do understand that no body is cheap labour. And the price of hiring an H1B worker has not been less infact there is a Govt. regulation for the minimum wage for an H1B..thats correct set by the UnitedStates Govt. and if someone does not pay that sum concerned H1B is out of status so by law he is supposed to get such a job to be even holding a H1 visa. So there is no question of cheap labour taking away an expensive american out of job. The standard is higher than what an american employee would demand. So all those folks out there talking about cheap H1B labour have no clue abt the regulation itself or simply they are just imagining that H1s are poor so they work for less.
Regarding helping the economy its common sense that when u are paying taxes here u are indeed helping the country even an outsourced job has a worker going to McDonalds in india for lunch, brushing his teeth with colgate toothpaste, wearing nike shoes, making break fast with pillsbury wheat flour , spends his weekends watching Hollywood’s movies, uses microsoft OS to work, his computers using antivirus firewall software coming out of this country all that revenue all those things mentioned here and million other american products being used sends billions of dollars back home. infact the american companies are only benefitting and benefitting even more with outsourcing. Dont just blame us when The money is going both ways.
H1Bs get the necessary skill and experience in their life to work for the best companies paying the best salaries. If a company in Australia is paying one of you guys a great salary would you not go there , just ask yourself would u not ?? i bet most would even go to mars ..thats how any human would do if he is getting a better offer and pay if he has a life.
If you have guts become more competitive, get back to school, study computers, specialize in software areas…..and if u do get over ur laziness( thats what obama called for during inaugural…dont blame me) i bet you would be easily getting the jobs just like any H1B. Stop being jealous get a life!!!
lets help each other guys there are infinite possibilities, H1bs are not illegal aliens enjoying all the benefits without paying taxes they are legal workers with ambitions in life and qualifications to speak for them.
If you go against H1Bs its true that companies are going to go for a skilled labour elsewhere and the other advantage for them is they dont have to pay as much overthere be it india china turkey or elsewhere ..dont u think these companies would be happy to do that..
so heres the rule of holes, when u are in a hole stop digging
I am an unemployed Software developer. I have 9 yrs 1099 consulting experience with my last position for a fortune 100 Financial firm on Wall St. in NYC. I also have 4 degrees, Computer Science, Network Engineering, A design and Business Management degree (Bachelors levels) , along with DB and Microsoft certifications. I cannot find a job because either I’m overqualified, or my skill set doesn’t exactly match the long list of requirements. I get emails from Recruiters asking for too many technologies, with specific version numbers without understanding that even those languages require several other technologies along side. They ask me to rate myself on scale of “1-10″ which is completely pointless, or to take a supposedly 10 minute, one time, online self evaluation test to see what salary range I fall into. These tests do not take 10 minutes and Computer Science isn’t about memorization. I led a team of 60 on my last position and have solid references on a Linkedin profile from top management but yet this isn’t good enough to find a job even 50% of my last salary.
First off, to the recruiting companies and hiring Managers. You state that you cant find skilled workers, but most of you have no understanding of the actual technologies you are asking for. How do you know that you cant find the skills, when in actuality you have no understanding of the product. You throw languages, products and version numbers around as if one can become experts by picking up a book and reading in 1 week. The Computer Science program includes Mathematics to Calculus 4 or 6, let alone the other complex engineering classes. Most Business and MBA grads take calculus 1 only. This should be an indication to you that brushing up on languages isn’t a weekly affair.
That said, I have worked with a number of H1 employees that never actually had Computer Science Degrees but had only completed Technical courses in specific languages in a few weeks. Most these H1 workers had poor comprehending and communication skills, requiring significant extra time in projects to re-explain things to them. I have also seen several Indian consulting companies based in USA trying to fill positions. They offer me low low rates as if I dont take it, they will give the job to an H1 willing worker. Not only do we need to cap H1 employment, but we also need to cap outsourcing so we can reform American products, quality and service.
‘H1Bs do not take away jobs’
1-1=0 .. not 1-1=1 or 1-1=2, no matter if its 6 months, 6 years or 6 decades, its simple math.
‘outsourcing uses windows in india which sends money here’
if it was not done that way, the windows would be sold here AND employ an american.. you fail to defend anything but selfishness.
‘H1B’s are smarter’
That is simply racist / biggoted. omg thats a horridly pathetic defence. I suppose you are something like Humans Ver_2.5 with PowerBoost.. Superhuman Coders…
Listen… There are respectable defences for H1B however so far this blog has shown nothing but attacks armed with hatred and ignorance.
I, for one, reading this post over the past few weeks have found about 2 people of the dozens that I care to even have read. The lot of the posts here are just blind, ignorant, hateful statements with no basis and all against the people that have spent their lives helping to make this nation that you all say has helped you greatly.
Let me be the first ‘lower level human’ to apoligize for being in your way and using first grade math as well as basic logic. They are tools of the oppressor and should be discarded.
Let me tell you one important and fore most basic thing, I agree that H1B holders are taking some of the jobs away from americans. But the basic reason behind this the vast growth of America in a nut shell is due to allowing various countries talent to grow internally. Can you believe how many of other country people are working in NASA . And all of you know how NASA has brought a big change in various sectors. US has gained a lot by putting all this new opportunuties and the talent of other countries for the benefit of US only . if US has not allowed this kind of immigration process US had not been in the same position as it is today. It would have been 100 years back if the collective talent was not explored and being used by various systems in the country.
‘Anyone’,
I fully agree to that view on H1B, respect it – as well as them for it. Again, I am not saying that they are bad for our nation – I believe in the total opposit! My last three relationships were of H1B, GreenCard and first generation born.
My big point in what I said was not slanting all H1B, just the ones that use ignorant comments and beliefs such as the ones I pointed out.
To the 75% or better of H1B that are out there (who sadly made up very, very little of this blog) I thank you and gladly work along side many of you at my office.
Also note – all the things I pointed out were taken from THIS very blog, I’m simply telling the local drama kids to stfu
I know its a bit higher on this thread (about a half dozen posts up) but I’d like to respond.
Dora,
You clearly say how “there’s at max 450,000 H1B holders at any time”.. You use this to defend that they are not taking any jobs?
Thats more than 1/6 of the city of San Diego.. I would say that if its 1/6, or apx 16%, of a major city, its not a “drop in the sea” its more like a larger boat in a harbor – its a considerable portion.
it’s not about being an indian or an american here.To be absolutely neutral America is a economic superpower and the quality of living is much better here than it is in india.as a result it is logical that most of the students ans software engineers would desire to come here as the prospects are far brighter than what they are in India.the situation has been aggravated by the consulting firms who rob the h1-b employees as well as are the cause for exploitation of the americans.So the government shud propose a bill to ban these consulting firms or formulate some strict guidelines and enact it asap.I have been on H1-B myself and it really pains me to see that a lot of these so called highly skilled workers dont fall into the category.Americans are totally justified in feeling aggrieved about the specific issue i just mentioned.however i would like to emphasize over here that they account for only around 30-35 % of the total population.This is just an assumption and might be proven wrong but the argument cannot be ignored.My final advice is that the economic situation is pretty nasty right now and it requires patience,resolve and dome hard but not hasty steps to come out of this mess that we are in at this moment.
Raj,
You are nailed the problem in the center!
Companies corner the H1B into a position, then this position blocks a citizen from market reasonable options and causes this strain.
I agree 100% with you that the regulations need to have a balance that will keep both sides in fair standing alongside eachother.
From a business view, I would think that the consideration should start with cost. If the company has to pay 80/hr for a citizen:
80/hr x yearly hours = A (citizen catagory)
A – cost of H1B sponsorship = B (H1B catagory)
Thus, to a company if you are in catagory A or B, it is a fair choice based on skills and options.
Thoughts?
Eric,
Before i answer your question i would state over here that i am treading the fair path and not taking anyone’s sides over here.So,people hopefully I presume would not consider my attitude to be partisan.
now coming to your question that salary or anything else cannot be compromised for quality.Knowledge and salary shud be the sole criteria for recruitment and not less salary or more no of hours in office etc.Actually some supervisors shud be appointed to monitor the recruitment process and there shud be strict guidelines which i have already emphasized upon.
As far as salary is concerned a person shud not b penalised for he or she not being a citizen even if they posess the same technical expertise equivalent to a us citizen.it is up to the compny to decide other avenues of deriving profits soughting his help than paying a lesser salary.Equality is what should be practised.
Just to add,’Knowledge and salary shud be the sole criteria for recruitment” shud b read as ‘Knowledge and efficiency shud be the sole criteria for recruitment ”
I totally agree with where you are headed with the criteria for advancement and opportunity.
The reason I altered the pay factor against H1B was not to target them, more to assist them. If the pay was the same in both instances, ignoring the sponsorship costs, then a company would perhaps be less inclined to hire an H1B? That factor was my only reason for the adjustment in the math above. It would keep companies in check and afford them no loss for either employee.
That being said, its a rough figure that would not apply often – it would only be a relative guide. A guide that is not currently in place.
American Ignorance never fails to startle me…..
you people want to sell MS Windows to the people of India and China..but dont want them to work in Microsoft…
For Americans who think tat they are smart… i dont think even one student from u top Univ MIT….can match the intellectual guts..of a kid from (IIT)…
We excel in Math i have seen books from ur high school kinds alleast 2 years behind..than indian High school Math…
U have all felicities still u people have school drop outs how pathetic…epitome of laziness and carelessness…
We stand upside down to secure an Engg /Med seat…U people wont ever be able to learn how the world is …just keep lookking into your well..as we forge ahead….. The time is ours…
Peace
Poster,
(responded to in order of your post)
By “you people” – that doesn’t include me, I don’t have any desires against where someone works as far as specific companies.
Um.. You should see my post about racists and bigots. Smarter and more educated are two different things, plus not everyone in America is lacking an education.
Blame us all for a few weak folks? Another view into your narrow, closed mind which obviously feeds your ego.
We’ll never be able to learn how the world is? “just keep lookking into [our] as well”? Please be more specific, in my closet? my desk drawer?
I am glad that other nations are improving their standings in the world, I really wish that it was fair for everyone, but I don’t think that it should be fed by hatred and cruel feelings.
Peace Love & Happiness to you, I hope you dispose of the anger in your life.
Eric
eric…
“A few weak folks….!!”
facts:
2 out of 3 phds in US are of asian origin
(and ratio further increasing)
first of all stop talking about ego…
come to india sit a call center and hear your fellow americans talk racial then you will realize ..what i mean… if america starts talking about hatred i will be all laughs…bombing innocent people for their oil…(fact india pays 3 time more for oil than america just because we are not a cruel nation like america)and ofcourse we dont spend most of our national income on War..
and
on smarter not smarter i compared the smartest indian kids(IIT) to smartest americans kids(MIT) … because the acceptace ratio for IIT is 200:1 lot tougher than MIT…hece logic dictates tat IIT kids are smarter than MIT kids..
I one more thing i am not sure how aware you are about world politics…india is statigically places between china and pakistan…so america wants friendly relations with india ..recently india signed a non nucliar prolifaration contract to make america happy
….so india has to get some thing back in exchange rit..so few H1 b visas are not a big deal..
all this talk only till dollar apprciation is 40 time more than rupee…once its drops below tat ..americans wont find any h1b r green cards floating here …
inorder for the dollar to remain competent..americans have to start living a conservative life….tats the bottom line
and if you know the law of averages… evry thing evens out..sooner or later…
and thanks but nothanks for your sarcasm ..
peace to You and America
(not being sarcastic like you are)
few more facts eric…
America installed all its toxic waste producing industries in …nations like India…it bribes officials to pass those proposals……people work for pittance of a wage in hazardous working conditions….soo all the clean roads green environment in US is ..because its kills thousands of poor homeless as they consume polluted unsafe drinking water ….and suffer from virulent diseases…
so how many people in US know about this?
i bet u dont?
y should just 3000,00,000 people in US compared to a billion in INDIA( alone) consume 3/4 of worlds natural resources…
its not about u r me Eric see the big picture…
America has lost its way….
its not long before countries realize and kick America out of the food chain….
then all the filth it cast on the world will be cast back on America…
please do some reading … about how America became a super power and how its faking to be super power now…..
to Indian fellow who comments on MIT vs. IIT.
The reason the ratio for acceptance is 200:1 as you stated ” much tougher ” is because it’s hard to select from a bigger pool of applicants .Don’t compare Apples to Oranges. Just to give you example , Universities in Russia have 10:1 acceptance ration , but produce much better specialists then IIT and MIT altogether. However we don’t abuse H1B
“To all those people out here thinking that H-1B program should be eliminated and only qualified American citizens should be given jobs”
Irony—Spend $29000 to pursue M.S in this country,crack interviews successfully but company won’t hire as company is “not able ” to sponsor OR “Permanent residents,citizens and Greencard holders only please”,,job posting requiring ONLY experienced people,,freshers treated as job market outcast,,economy in recession with layoffs happening every 2nd day,,face the frustration of being unemployed for months,,listen to swearing of under qualified citizens for H-1B aspirants,,getting their jobs even though they know that roughly 5% of american citizens get into STEM fields—I-R-O-N-Y…And guys,,what is this fuss about International students or H-1B aspirants taking U.S jobs…I mean WHY???…You know what is the contribution of International students and immigrants to this country…The search engine which you probably used to get to this website was the investion of a Russian born immigrant…The World Wide Web becam a reality because of the sincere efforts of a Greek immigrant…The desktop PC that your father used and probably you used for playing those games years ago was possible because of the “Pentium” processor whose inventor,I am proud to say this,is an INDIAN…36% of NASA scientists are Indians…My friend,,,I can go on and on about the contribution of immigrants to this country….open the website of any American university and how many American professors do you see who are Ph.d and teaching graduate courses???I CHALLENGE you…Do it right now…Any University or Any Graduate program in an american university and you will know the VALUE of Eductaed immigrants in this country…Don’t you ever give me the crap of eliminating the H-1B visa program again!!!
It is really stupid that people are arguing about H1B ejection from their country. If they are that much concerned, then I would be very much happy to not choose this country of bigots and stupids. US earns a lot thro foreign policy and taxes. Since many US products are in India and so called third world countries, the govt has been earning bucks. And Obama has been talking of H1B visa reduction. IF he does then India is not obliged to be a dumping ground for all your products and you ppl will be losing money in billions. Because for one, the nuclear deal is bound to be cancelled bcos of Obamas policies. Two, since they dont want us, we dont want you American companies to be in our country. So get lost. Three, You wud be stuck at 9 without an Indian who taught you the power of ZERO.
As for you ppl yourself are immigrants.
Remeber this is a global economy. One nation cannot survive without mutual understanding and relationship. This is a world of obligation, a give and take world. If you dont want immigrants, then dont sell your products elsewhere, start complaining about selling ur indigenously produced products in the global market and then about H1B.
I have respected people from over the world and have not identified or categorized people. But when one segregates and blames the H1B from others, i am obliged to raise my voice.
I understand you people are losing your jobs. But blaming H1B immigrants for that is totally stupid. If you are capable and have the talents, you will get the job. Else you are bound to lose the job. Simple as it is, but might be a real problem, because of the no of jobless which is a concern in every part of the world now.
For one i am just upset at the way few Americans are thinking aginst the H1B, than reassessing themselves. There is a need to be confident. If you are not confident of yourself, may God Bless you people.
(I am not talking of the all the Americans, but some people do have some stupid way of thinking)
Be rational. Phew! One World will never be a reality with such people.
If you notice now lots of Universities are in bankruptcy due to less foreigners coming to US, mainly from India and China. Universities like Havard, MIT started firing the staffs of 30%. So who’s giving jobs to the universites, the forigners or US Citizens?
If you stop the foreign students then you guys will be paying more for the colleges then paying now.
Think twice before you say something.
You guys mention H1-B work can be done by an American, but if an American do that Job correctly, why the foreigner should come to USA
Ok this is a sore topic for me on H1-B’s. Today i am being let go the team is getting rid of all contractors and keeping all the Venders from India. This pisses me off and one person that i work with from India, he does not know how to install windows software and i am like what the hell???? He is a coder and he can’t install windows software on a workstation or servers. What the hell are they teaching these people there in India.. Plus he can’t troubleshoot hardware like loose video cards and network cards. To me if i was President of the United States I kill the H1-B and put more funding for Americans to get the training and skillset they need. And send all those India people and alike back home where they belong.
@Jack Meahoff
The same thing happens in your part of the world too. When people call to Norton customer care centers based in India, those jerks don’t even know what a OS is. My friend who works in BPO gets a call daily with idiot customers scolding them without even knowing to operate a computer. There are lots of stupid things they quote. And it wud take me ages to fill in those details.
So infact there are many stupid persons on every part of the world including US. You are not kids with brain either to criticise others. And by the way, I strongly second barring H1B Visa to incompetent fellows. Because they will not give back much to your govt and will be nonetheless a robot.
There are lots of H1B scams that are going on in the US and i have read many too. So probably with new H1B bill being passed, scams may be less.
I do think that it is really stupid to blame Indians for losing job. Blame your company. Why blame us? Company takes the decision not the Indians.
If you say Russian students are better ….
That is attributed to the amount of funds allocated for RnD in Russia u should rem the technology race between us and Russia rit….which gave Russia, Germany and USA a head start…
Indian IIT’s lack funds as our country fights poverty and some other social issues… So students fail to get hands on experience due to lack of heavily furnished labs etc..
if u just compare skill(mental ability) and wit IIT students are the best they are the cream of our country….the IIT exam will send shivers down the spine of any student from any part of the world….
It takes a different mind set to crack the exam…
In india every thing comes out of adversity..so it is sustainable and rock solid
[...] there are interesting posts here, but there is another point to be made. there is no point in spending all of the money necessary to get a college education if you then outsource the jobs. there will always be educated people around the world willing to work for less money because their standard of living is lower. i am glad to see that some politicians are addressing the H1B visa program, even though it is not a big enough step. not only that, i disagree with obama’s entire policy on H1B visas as he is stating that there are not enough "educated americans" to fill all the positions and i disagree with that vehemently. i state that it is more an issue that he is being led by corporations who wish to hire cheaper labor. Barack Obama on H1B and Immigration [...]
[...] people that did not go to college – Politics and Other Controversies – Page 4 – City-Data Forum on Barack Obama on H1B and Immigrationmeena on Salary of Freshers in Indian IT Industrymeena on Salary of Freshers in Indian IT [...]
Guys,
Do not worry about H1B workers….the H1B cap for 2010 has still not been reached! In past years, this was reached and exceeded on the first day (April 1). Moreover, the Obama administration has started rejecting extensions for H1-B workers who are already in the US….so you will see a steady downfall in H1 workers.
But whether this helps or harms the US economy is another story. Coz with so many H1-B workers getting all the heat, foreign students won’t feel like spending big bucks on US universities…and the trend has already started!
How do you guys not realize that someone who works on H1-B is actually spending his earning in the US and contributing as much to economic growth as the US citizens.
Offshoring & outsourcing is another issue which might actually harm US citizens as well as people migrating to the US for work/study (including H1-B workers). But large corporations will never stop offshoring/outsourcing! So there you go…
As for me, I am a tech professional on H1-B and expecting my extension to be rejected (due for renewal next year). So will pursue my career in a different country. And I shall have fewer hairs turning white from worrying about keeping my job to maintain my immigrant status, GC, citizenship, blah blah…
Don’t get me wrong, I love US…the cities, the food, the bourbon and even the people. But can’t help hating the the politics and the corporate strategies that govern this country!
God save the US!
Cheers!
I wonder why are these ppl so scared of H1 ppl. It’s an open economy and world is moving towards that. This is the truth and one has to accept it today or later. Try any means but the talent will always win whether it’s from locals or is coming out of country. Protectionism never helps and always leads to disaster. If you don’t know what you are doing I don’t think you should be getting advantage over anyone. Talented tech workers don’t care where they work. US are no big deal for them. They will go where ever their talent is appreciated. If US locals keep acting foolish like this I am sure they will be serving some other country and make that country a super power. Imagine then these locals serving that country and becoming immigrant there. Moreover, H1 ppl do pay taxes and are disciplined citizens, not like illegal immigrants who are overloads to the society.
1) L1 Visa people are far more than H1 Visa people in USA
2) If USA is taking a stand that it will not allow any H1B visa holder from India,China or other countries to have a job in USA (Because they want to give job to american citizen )then Indian and chineese government should BAN US products/Companies from China and India .
If USA cannot share anything then china and india also have right to look after local companies goods and services .
If Local companies in India and China florish the they will have more opportunities for indian and chineese in thier home country itself rather then comming to USA .
IF above happens, then US corporation will not be able to make money ,US government will not get taxes from US corporation and USA government will then relaize it mistake .
One more things i have heard
Q) Imigrant sent all thier money back to thier country ?
Ans:
H1B visa people pay same tax (Federal,State,SS) as other american but they will never get the benefit like unemployment benefit,free healthcare , discount to do college course etc etc
I don’t understand all this hateful word from american without understaning the whole thing .
I know that there is lots of rejection of H1B and other work visa and that all is happening because of instruction given by new Obama government to USCIS. This government is complete failure and don’t understand that this will increase outsourcing work. Already there is a significant rise is outsourcing. Many companies have started outsourcing their work in the shortage of skilled labor.
I know that there is lots of rejection of H1B and other work visa and that all is happening because of instruction given by new Obama government to USCIS. This government is complete failure and don’t understand that this will increase outsourcing work. Already there is a significant rise is outsourcing. Many companies have started outsourcing their work in the shortage of skilled labor. The sad part is that condition is becoming worst and work is moving out from USA.
Eric,
You seems to be a fool. What have you done for US? Just don’t waste time in writing stupid things. Try to use your brain and then all problems will be solved. Be competent.
Eric… for your information..
there are many foreign people who are staying and working in India now even though India has billion people and 1/3 of US area wise…try to understand.. World is changing… wake up Eric…
Oppression. Americans work top secret jobs for the Feds while indentured H1Bs work the private sector. Enough – sounds like Germany.
Are there any new companies developing antivirus firewall applications? The old ones are not that good
Wow! I just saw this blog site.. the debate here is incredible. There is a lot of opinion, some good, some bad and some downright dumb but never boring. I am in the UK, and the immigration debate is all about stopping cab drivers and islamic terrorist immigrants.
Whatever is the future, I can vouch for 2 certain results.
a) The US, India and China is the future. Citizens of most other countries have no clue on globalization and are miles behind in regards to dedication and hardwork
b) Capitalism will be tame in the years ahead. We have all learnt that the free wheeling all for profit race does no good.
With that, all the best for all the people on this blog. You guys will all do well… just move to Europe dude.. HALF THE CONTINENT IS ON BENEFIT AND THE OTHER HALF IS WATCHING SOCCER. WHAT ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT!